Why Buy a Mac Now?

[LGRW3919]

do you know this transition will take two years? and that's just to change all hardware to intel, and also it's not clear whether the entire line will run on intel. right now we run motorola and ibm, what's to say apple doesnt keep selling g4's or g5's along with pentiums? and if they do that that then there must be software support.

i think instead of thinking that they don't have consideration for their customers it's the other way around...they will try to deliver the best chips for their computers, and try to do away with the supply problems they've had before.

the transition to be selling ONLY intel based macs will take until the end of 2005 Mr. Jobs said. the transition for the mac community to be mostly on these intel machines (when developers will make intel ONLY code) will be until 2008, 2009 or even 2010. everyone should stop worrying! developers won't be going anywhere for at least 3, but probly 4 or 5 years!

 

[tuartboy]

...And if nothing else, you could think of it like this: Many audiophiles still prefer analog tube amplifiers and record players to any modern digital product when it comes to a perfect listening experience. Perhaps in a similar manner, the last generation of powerpc macs will be thought of as priceless computing experiences and will gain value with time among a crowd of analogous computer idealists.

Or am I dreaming?

lol

let's hope; i'm buying a 12" PB tomorrow night!!!

 

[tuartboy]

the transition to be selling ONLY intel based macs will take until the end of 2005 Mr. Jobs said. the transition for the mac community to be mostly on these intel machines (when developers will make intel ONLY code) will be until 2008, 2009 or even 2010. everyone should stop worrying! developers won't be going anywhere for at least 3, but probly 4 or 5 years!

2005? where did you get that date?

 

[zflauaus]

I am currently bidding on a G4 Cube on eBay (1 day, 11 Hours to go), and this will replace my aging HP computer that is not a responsive as it was 3 years ago. This will be my first Mac. The reason I am bidding on this is because I believe it will be supported by Apple for quite a while. I am pretty sure this will outlast my PC without having to reinstall Tiger every single day. I love Macs because of their ease-of-use, the design, functionality, and the lack of viruses, spyware, etc.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Guys- even if Apple switched completely to Intel TOMORROW, everything will use universal binaries. A PowerPC Mac can run everything now, everything from the past, and everything IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE SWITCH.

An Intel Mac can't run Classic, and an Intel Mac has to run all the current software in emulation (really slow), and only runs future software well (just as well as the PowerPC).

So there's no risk to buying PPC, it won't be useless in two years.

 

[cwerdna]

Guys- even if Apple switched completely to Intel TOMORROW, everything will use universal binaries. A PowerPC Mac can run everything now, everything from the past, and everything IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE SWITCH.

An Intel Mac can't run Classic, and an Intel Mac has to run all the current software in emulation (really slow), and only runs future software well (just as well as the PowerPC).

So there's no risk to buying PPC, it won't be useless in two years.

<sigh>
No, not *EVERYTHING* will use universal binaries. It's only if the developer has taken the hit and time to create and test them. It would be a potentially huge hit for a huge app to have to migrate from CodeWarrior to XCode. If they can't do it in time, it'll be running emulated on MacTels.

To claim "A PowerPC Mac can run... everything IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE SWITCH" is most likely going to be false. There will be some point in the future (my guess is mid to late 2007 at the earliest) where sw and hw vendors may stop updating their apps for PowerPC and only update for MacTel. At some point after (probably a few years after that) that when the cost/benefit ratio is too low for them, they'll stop producing PowerPC binaries.

What % of major apps are still having major updates for OS 8 and 9? How about for 68K Macs? Can you get Panther, Tiger, Mac Office 2004, iLife 05 and iWork for 68K Macs?

 

[orijinal]

in short... keep buying apples!

i'm planning on doing my switch sometime this week, 15" superdrive

 

[Dr. Dastardly]

OK seriously people it will take them 2 years to update the whole line with intels. Now to me that seems to be a long time considering. If you are really that freaked about it then get a cheaper Mac like the Mac mini or an iBook. I'm sure you will make up for "your lost investment" within two years.

 

[bentmywookie]

<sigh>
No, not *EVERYTHING* will use universal binaries. It's only if the developer has taken the hit and time to create and test them. It would be a potentially huge hit for a huge app to have to migrate from CodeWarrior to XCode. If they can't do it in time, it'll be running emulated on MacTels.

To claim "A PowerPC Mac can run... everything IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE SWITCH" is most likely going to be false. There will be some point in the future (my guess is mid to late 2007 at the earliest) where sw and hw vendors may stop updating their apps for PowerPC and only update for MacTel. At some point after (probably a few years after that) that when the cost/benefit ratio is too low for them, they'll stop producing PowerPC binaries.

What % of major apps are still having major updates for OS 8 and 9? How about for 68K Macs? Can you get Panther, Tiger, Mac Office 2004, iLife 05 and iWork for 68K Macs?

Thank you - finally someone brought this point up. My concern over purchasing PowerPCs within the next year has to do with whether or not it will have updated versions of software to run on it in 3-4 years (I believe this is still a reasonable computer lifetime for those of us whose pockets aren't overflowing with cash).

We simply do not know which software developers will continue to put out PowerPC versions of their products once the switch to Intel is well underway (which seems like it'll be around 1-1/2 to 2 years). I personally don't want to buy a Powerbook or Powermac now and in 2 years time have significantly less software support.

My guess/hope is that any PowerPC product you buy now will be well-supported for at least another 3 years, but it's definitely not certain.

 

[wiseguy27]

Thank you - finally someone brought this point up. My concern over purchasing PowerPCs within the next year has to do with whether or not it will have updated versions of software to run on it in 3-4 years (I believe this is still a reasonable computer lifetime for those of us whose pockets aren't overflowing with cash).

We simply do not know which software developers will continue to put out PowerPC versions of their products once the switch to Intel is well underway (which seems like it'll be around 1-1/2 to 2 years). I personally don't want to buy a Powerbook or Powermac now and in 2 years time have significantly less software support.

My guess/hope is that any PowerPC product you buy now will be well-supported for at least another 3 years, but it's definitely not certain.

As MacSA pointed out here

Why are people so concerned about a PPC Mac purchased now or even in 12 months time being "obselete" ? How many years will it take for Intel based Mac numbers to even match the number of PPC Macs - let alone significanty excede them? It would be suicidal of Apple if they did NOT fully support PPC for many years after the introduction of Intel chips.

why would developers even want to throw away an existing market until, say 2010??? Just because Steve Jobs said that they hope to complete the transition by end of 2007 doesn't mean the whole community of Mac users is going to switch to the Intel machines overnight! Except for the pros who have to have the latest and greatest hardware, most other users ALWAYS seem to wait for a Rev B or a Rev C even in new PPC based Mac models. So a Rev B Power Mac or iMac based on Intel would see the light of the day probably between mid 2007 to end 2008 or so. Add a few more months for people to contemplate and switch to the newer ones, and it's already 2009 for many Power Mac users who'd upgrade.

And because of the FUD that surrounds big transitions like this, I don't see a huge wave of Windows users switching to Intel Macs within a few months of the release. I don't know how much cheaper or costlier Intel chips are going to be for Apple, but Apple will definitely not release *high performance systems* to compete in the price range of the mass market Windows PCs (like Dell/HP etc.). Apple's sales volumes may not be able to sustain too high a price cut. You may get a lot better performance from the higher end Macs, but the price point may still remain close to the historical price points (like $499, $1499, $1999, $2499 etc.). So although you may get a better machine in the future, the cash outflow would remain the same (forget about inflation and other factors for this discussion ). And that's been the case a few years ago and it remains the same now too - someone bought a 2GHz dual Power Mac for $2499 several months ago and now someone can buy a 2.3GHz dual Power Mac (with bigger HDD etc.) for the same price.

In the WWDC keynote, Steve Jobs also said that they hope Tiger to gain a share of 50% amongst Mac users by next June - the remaining 50% would still be with Panther or Jaguar. If it takes a few years just to get people to upgrade an OS that costs $129 retail, would it take any sooner to get people to switch their costlier hardware to Intel Macs??? Even if you argue that the PPC line of Macs is nearing its end of life, it doesn't prove that users will panic and switch - they will do so when they need it and when they can afford it and when they feel comfortable with the promise of the new architecture/lineup. In the Windows world there are still millions of users on Windows 95! I'm sure in the Mac world there are many users who continue to use their Macs that are more than 5 years old (even though they may not get any software updates from Apple or other software developers, and even though it may not fulfill all that they'd *want* to do).

Software companies do know very well how tough and time consuming it is to get (or rather, bait) users to switch to the latest hardware and software. They also know very well that only by supporting existing products for a few years will they be able to convince users to trust them and upgrade to later versions. Yes, this transition does impose an additional cost to developers to develop, test and fix software on two different platforms, but the last thing a software developer in the Mac world would want to do is antagonize the existing customer base and potentially lose a lot of new customers through word of mouth (or the faster medium, Internet). Yes, they would definitely stop PPC development and support sometime, but it's not going to be 2008 or 2009!

Most of the bigger (and long time) Mac software developers would definitely continue supporting all their apps on the PPC lineup till 2010 or later. In that case it really doesn't seem to matter that a Mac with an Intel chip is coming in 2 years from now. Even in the new Intel Mac lineup, would you count on software being supported for more than 5-6 years without having to upgrade? I personally doubt that. And 2010 is still around 5 years away.

 

[cwerdna]

And because of the FUD that surrounds big transitions like this, I don't see a huge wave of Windows users switching to Intel Macs within a few months of the release. I don't know how much cheaper or costlier Intel chips are going to be for Apple, but Apple will definitely not release *high performance systems* to compete in the price range of the mass market Windows PCs (like Dell/HP etc.). Apple's sales volumes may not be able to sustain too high a price cut....

In that case it really doesn't seem to matter that a Mac with an Intel chip is coming in 2 years from now.

Even w/o the switch to Intel processors, I don't think we'd have seen a sudden wave of Windows users switching to Macs either. With the switch, I think people will be more hesitant to buy a high end PPC machine for the time being. If MacTels end up being a lot cheaper then PPC Macs (once they ship), we might see some more switcherz.

Your last statement isn't quite right. Steve Jobs said that June 06 (WWDC 06), they expect to already be shipping Intel based Macs.

 

[sbb155]

bottom line: you are crazy to buy a mac now until intel processors come out. Too much uncertainty. I was looking at a PM DP until the announcement. Now, forget it.

 

[wiseguy27]

Your last statement isn't quite right. Steve Jobs said that June 06 (WWDC 06), they expect to already be shipping Intel based Macs.

My post was mainly about the time it takes for the transition to Intel and how long most people might take to switch to the new Intel Macs - I was talking more from the Power Mac perspective because that's planned to be the last to be transitioned to Intel chips around the end of 2007 (if everything goes well). That was the reason I stated two years, because that's what matters to developers who're looking at the end of a hardware platform and the beginning of a new era of supporting older (dead end) hardware for some more years.

 

[wiseguy27]

bottom line: you are crazy to buy a mac now until intel processors come out. Too much uncertainty. I was looking at a PM DP until the announcement. Now, forget it.

If one were to believe what Steve Jobs said in WWDC '05 about continuing to produce PPC based Macs (till the end of the transition to Intel), then newer PPC Power Macs are on the way, which may include a dual core version...maybe in the beginning or the middle of next year. Apple wouldn't want to have nothing to sell in its most profitable product line (Power Macs) till mid or end 2007!!! And if they want to sell Power Macs next year and in 2007, they'd definitely try to put users' fears at ease by promising specific (longer) timelines for supporting PPC Power Macs.

 

[Alasta]

I had been considering waiting until the Intel based notebooks are shipping before replacing my aging G3 iBook, but this thread is making me see reason.

At work, our tech support team still gets a reasonable number of calls from customers who are still using Mac OS 9. I therefore agree with others who are suggesting that Apple and hardware/software suppliers will want to continue to support PPC until at least mid-2009. By then, I'll be shopping for my next Mac.

I usually replace my machine every three years, and my current machine will be three years old at the end of this year. At that stage, if there is reliable evidence to suggest that Intel based Macs will be available within six months, then I will hold on to this machine for a bit longer. Otherwise, I will not hesitate to buy whatever iBook is available at the time.

 

[wwooden]

Before the announcement, I was planning on buying an iMac G5 in june to get the extra $100 from that coupon. This anouncement is not stopping me at all. This will still be a damn fast computer and will hold its own for years to come.

 

[atszyman]

bottom line: you are crazy to buy a mac now until intel processors come out. Too much uncertainty. I was looking at a PM DP until the announcement. Now, forget it.

Actually quite the contrary. Especially for office upgrades. The best time to buy is right now, or right after the next PPC upgrade.

We have ~2 years before the transition is complete and all Macs are running Intel. In this time many apps will be ported to universal binaries, but not all (especially older applications that may be entrenched in your office). The PPC chip will run all of the applications you currently have natively, while the Intel will require the newer, universal binary, edition of all of your software. For any apps that don't get ported or move slower you will take a performance hit by pushing them through Rosetta where a PPC would run it natively. I don't see any developer dropping universal binaries before 2015 and probably closer to 2020, if at all.

Remember Jobs was talking about how they have been compiling for Intel/PPC to keep their options open, I would expect developers to now do the same for the possibility that a PPC breakthrough could have Apple switching back.

If you buy now you will have nothing to worry about until it is time to upgrade your computer. If you wait you have ~2 years of fighting the computer you have at home either because it is too slow or running an OS you don't like, and then you have the headache of making sure the applications you want are universal when you buy an early Intel box which will more than likely have other issues. A PPC today will run all of the apps you want it to and cary you until a vast majority of apps are universal. It should also keep you until rev B of the Intel Macs come out and fix the hardware issues from the rev As.

 

[jiv3turkey748]

I'll pay for the OS, but why should I pay a premium for the hardware? I'm not about to buy a computer at that price for only 1-2 years no matter how useful it is. I can buy a cheap PC and wait it out.

if buy cheap pc you mean mac mini then thats a good idea

 

[maclamb]

Saved from a horrible mistake...

This thread really helped me, thank you

I bought a PB 17/167 maxed out 2 months ago (for 20% under retail due to ADC discount) and have been EXCEPTIONALLY HAPPY with it - I love it - it's the BEST machine (PC or MAC) I have ever owned.
That being said, I was struck with a massive case of FUD and was ready to sell it on ebay and even went so far as to order an HP ZD8000 17" PC! (For work there are some apps that are windows only I need to run. I have a thinkpad from work and dell desktop for those right now, but love the 17" screen).
I figured now was the time to sell the PB and get best $ for it.
- I thought it would be nice to have one machine to run everything on and a PB 17 with intel would be great! I'd use the PC for a year, then sell it and get the new Mactel
then, this morning I realized:
1. I love my PB. there, I said it, I love my wife more, but that's a different story.
2. The zd8000 is 10 LBS and almost 2 inches thick and gets HOT and is really LOUD (3 fans) and no DVI port ! (sheesh)
3. This PB meets my needs just fine (web, office, movies) and will for a long time to come. I don't do audio/video/3d, so CPU speed is not a big factor.
4. Sure I'd love a PB 17 same form factor that will run everything - and maybe 1 or 2 years from now ( or more, would I buy Veresion A of a new archtiecture like that?, probably not) it will and maybe I'll get one then, and maybe I'll be dead or beamed up by space aliens. And by then I may not even need to run any wintel programs! (woo hoo)

The "wait for the next best thing" is an insidious addiction and easy to fall into.
So, I remain escastic with my PB sweetie and my thinkpad sits quietly until I need it to run the 1 or 2 PC apps I need.

so, as they say in the South, "I'm going to dance with the one that brung me"

 

[tsk]

...And if nothing else, you could think of it like this: Many audiophiles still prefer analog tube amplifiers and record players to any modern digital product when it comes to a perfect listening experience. Perhaps in a similar manner, the last generation of powerpc macs will be thought of as priceless computing experiences and will gain value with time among a crowd of analogous computer idealists.

Or am I dreaming?

I think you're mostly dreaming particularly as it relates to the original posters interest (a PowerBook). I gotta believe that once the new PB comes out with an Intel, they will do some fancy new form factor or something. I don't think the old units will be worthless, but I think they'll immediately sink to G3 status.

For that reason, I'm looking at used iBooks to hold me over till the new PB arrives.

 

[tsk]

Guys- even if Apple switched completely to Intel TOMORROW, everything will use universal binaries. A PowerPC Mac can run everything now, everything from the past, and everything IN THE FUTURE AFTER THE SWITCH.

An Intel Mac can't run Classic, and an Intel Mac has to run all the current software in emulation (really slow), and only runs future software well (just as well as the PowerPC).

So there's no risk to buying PPC, it won't be useless in two years.

I think you're probably right on this. If I were the type to buy a system now and use it for 3-4 years, I wouldn't be sweating it so much.

Myself personally, I'll probably be all over that first generation of Intel PB. So I'm concerned about resale value.

 

[cwerdna]

bottom line: you are crazy to buy a mac now until intel processors come out. Too much uncertainty. I was looking at a PM DP until the announcement. Now, forget it.

I think that's a bit extremist. I think buying a high end PM G5 is nutty at this point. IMHO, it's better to get a lower end machine now so that you have less invested in it and since longevity won't matter as much.

For the record, I plan to get a Mini whereas before I was planning on getting PM G5 2 ghz DP.

 

[Will_reed]

Id get a dual pm g5 when the next line comes out its beter to get one now that way you can maximise the ppc life.
I dont think that apple should completly remove the ppc line who knows what could come up in the future.

 

[JonMaker]

I'm going to be pretty much forced to but an ibook between now and september, and by the time we have intel in the iBook (2 years away), I'll be ready to upgrade to it.
I'll still be able to use the PPC ibook.

 

[derboy]

Before the announcment i was pretty much set on selling my duel g5 and getting a powerbook, for the mobility. At that point i was prepared for the performance decrease.

I think the issue that stops me buying a powerbook now, is that steve jobs has pretty much admitted they are well behind on performance. His Admission! - And that it isnt about to change anytime soon. So i have to pay a very large premium to get a slow laptop (now) which is set to get rapidy slower with the migration to intel.

Another point that annoys me is the emphasis apple placed on 64 bit and altivec. So where is that then Steve?? Oh right so it was just marketing then. cheers!