why i'm leery of lion

Discussion in 'Mac OS X Lion (10.7)' started by stevemiller, Apr 9, 2011.

  1. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    #1
    full screen apps, auto save, versions, resume, these are the things that would sell me on lion. except every single one of them comes with an asterix "*Available with apps that have been developed to work with Lion." ...to me that just sounds like smoke and mirrors.

    1. maybe some smaller mac-only apps will leverage these features in an attempt to be more competitive, but i'm not counting on adobe or any other large cross platform developers ever bothering. i heavily use creative suite and various 3d packages, and i'm betting that just like open CL, many of these lion features make nice marketing bullet points but translate to very limited real world adoption.

    2. none of this is really anything that developers couldn't already do if they desired: fullscreen - see chrome; autosave/versions - see after effects or final cut; resume - see text wrangler. so one may counter "but apple is providing a consistent and unified experience for these features" to which i respond "see my first point." it will be as it was, a hodgepodge of inconsistent, per-app behaviour.

    so, i guess can look forward to their other headlining features?

    -the app store (nope, they already gave us that and i already don't really care)

    -launch-pad (no thanks, a prettied up grid display of my apps folder doesn't really do much for me. i'll take quicksilver, spotlight or even pinned-to-the-dock icons to get me to my program quickly, rather than swiping through app pages, presumably admiring the softly blurred wallpaper image)

    -mission control may or may not be a refinement on expose, i dunno. looks convoluted through; if windows are grouped by app and you're looking for a specific app window, how useful is it buried under the "pile" of windows that represent that app?

    -air drop looks like they took the "shared" area from the finder sidebar and made it a lion-to-lion-only feature. presumably they're sprinkling lion pixie dust on it so that you don't get the "connection failed" error that happens half the time you currently try putting something in another user's public>dropbox folder.

    anyway, mostly this is just a rant, as i intend to time my macbook pro upgrade this summer so it is bundled with snow leopard but i can get lion through that "up-to-date" window they usually provide. i'm sure as time goes on certain updates will become lion-only and i'll have to adapt, but i got burned being an early adopter of snow leopard only to deal with all the initial release bugs and no real performance improvements from all that grand central and open cl mumbo jumbo.

    i seriously miss the days when new versions brought truly useful stuff like expose, spotlight and time machine!
     
  2. macrumors 6502a

    PurrBall

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    #2
    These features becoming system-wide, however, will increase the chances that developers will implement them, which is good for everyone- they have less work, we have less worry.
     
  3. stevemiller, Apr 9, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011

    thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    #3
    i understand that's the goal but it's still "the potential of a feature" rather than an actual feature, and as opencl demonstrated, potential is not always realized, especially when its os-specific and developers are trying to deploy for multiple platforms. heck, name even one apple app that bothers to leverage open cl (yeah yeah h264 decoding in quicktime x, but no encoding where you might actually SAVE time; nowhere for rendering in final cut; nowhere for image processing in aperture)

    time will tell, but my bets are that you won't see these lion features implemented anytime soon in the software that would most benefit from them either, aka mission-critical productivity apps.

    and from a casual/novice user standpoint, i think this situation would be just as disappointing for those who assume "oh hey i'm using lion so everything autosaves and auto-reopens" ...except when it doesn't.

    anyway, maybe i'll be wrong, but until all that autosave/resume/versions stuff is confirmed working in mainstream software, i'm calling lion's bluff of on these so-called new features!

    *EDIT: I'll eat my words, aperture uses open cl for raw processing, good on them for that at least.
     
  4. Moderator

    maflynn

    Staff Member

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    May 3, 2009
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    Boston
    #4
    One thing is for sure. Jobs did not provide us with a lot of features when he unveiled 10.7. Will apple add more features in between now and the public release.

    Yes, I believe so. Will they be major additions, no. The developer preview is probably feature complete for the most part, no major new enhancements will be making its way in.

    I'm underwhelmed by 10.7 as it stands now, while I have concerns and apple really has failed to sell 10.7 to me. I'll wait until they release final product before making my ultimate judgment on whether its a worthwhile upgrade.
     
  5. macrumors 604

    mrsir2009

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    #5
    I'm becoming reluctant to get Lion too now. It doesn't seem much different from Snow Leopard, and its probably not worth the bother of re-doing my entire MBP for the 3rd time...

    The only current major feature I'd like is the launchpad thats similar to the iPad. Because there are lots of apps I'd like to be on my desktop visible, but can't fit on the dock. However this feature, even though I'd really like it, is certainly not worth buying Lion for.

    I find it funny how they advertised the app store as a new Lion feature - Hello? They gave it to us ages on on SNOW LEOPARD.
     
  6. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    #6
    It's better that they introduce new features that may take some time to catch on, or not every third party will immediately latch on to, than to, for that very reason, not introduce something at all.

    In my view, it's Apple's job as an OS creator to introduce new features and to make them work well and smoothly enough that third parties will be encouraged to make use of them -- even to go so far as having third party developers appear behind the curve if they don't.

    This is something that Apple is apparently really good at -- creating a new baseline or framework, or aspects of a framework, and expecting those who develop for their platform to follow suit.
    Apple's job is to make the new features work well enough that they become new standard -- which is to say that they're practical, aesthetically attractive, streamlined into the interface smoothly enough, and… anything else that I'm not thinking of.

    And... pardon me if this is coming off as a little too "ra-ra Apple" -- but new features and standards may not always follow through as much as Apple wants, but I'm sure that most of us [a good portion of the time] are glad that they're making the effort.

    Developers following suit is part of the game. Apple can't (and doesn't) innovate alone. If a third party isn't making use of a new option that is useful and works well, then… they're just being boring.
     
  7. macrumors 65816

    maclaptop

    Joined:
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    #7
    I'm not as concerned about having to wait for full implementation of features, as I am about the fact that iOS is a mobile OS.

    I fail to see what good blending iOS into OS X will be for power users such as myself and others, that use our computers to make a living.

    I do a lot of scientific / math / maya / etc. and fail to see anything but disadvantages.

    If I am wrong, please correct me. Tell me what Lion has to offer those of us who have been using computers professionally for years. :)
     
  8. macrumors 604

    mrsir2009

    Joined:
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    Melbourne, Australia
    #8
    Thats the thing - Apple is trending more and more to be a consumer company, not a professional one. Its very sad, I liked Apple better before all this iOS consumer stuff :(
     
  9. macrumors 65816

    maclaptop

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    #9
    You read my mind Perfectly !
     
  10. Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

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    #10
    It's still Unix under the hood. I haven't played with it myself, but one of the things I like about the Mac platform is that it insulates me from Unix when I don't want it, but the full power of Unix is right there just below the surface.

    Things like Grand Central Dispatch are huge for performance users.

    B
     
  11. macrumors 601

    vincenz

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    #11
    Just give them time. It's not like everything can get set up overnight. You don't even know how it is yet. Theres still time until the summer.
     
  12. macrumors 65816

    maclaptop

    Joined:
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    #12
    Don't get me wrong, I'm neither complaining, or criticizing. Nor am I being impatient, as I have nothing but patience when it comes to new technologies. It's a matter of sharing thoughts in this forum designed for open discussion.

    I'm just feeling a bit concerned with all this focus placed on entertainment, ultra simple consumer level devices, and reducing things down so they can be used by great grandpa.

    This, amongst all the posts complaining about the complexity of Android (hardly complex), is an all new area for one to ponder. It makes me wonder just what Apple is up to that is not obvious.
     
  13. thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    #13
    i do generally agree with this sentiment as i am always in favour of innovation, but if its uncertain that a feature will even be available in many cases, it doesn't really drive my desire to buy the product. and that seems to be the case with most of the features that interest me in lion. there needs to be a mix, and right now it seems like the only headline features that'll be guaranteed useable from day one are a fullscreen grid of application icons and some new scrollbars. :p
     
  14. Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

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    New England
    #14
    By WWDC we should see more details and also some more insight into first and third party apps that take advantage of some of the "under the hood" features.

    I was just invited to a beta program for one such third party application looking at a fairly major update due to come out around Lion's release. I don't know what features will be Lion only and what will be supported under Snow Leopard. There are NDAs involved so I won't say any more.

    B
     
  15. macrumors 603

    ECUpirate44

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    NC
    #15
    Me too. I remember when Apple was a computer company, but I do love my iPhone...
     
  16. macrumors regular

    inket

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    #16
    Pixelmator uses most of OS X's under-the-hood features. And it shows - It's a really great and fast app.

    Also I heard Lion is getting OpenGL 3, though I'm not sure where I read that.
     
  17. macrumors 604

    mrsir2009

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    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    #17
    Yup, and it was called "Apple Computers".

    BTW its interesting how the guys in the new MBA videos and stuff are the same guys as in the iBook G3 videos all those years ago...
     
  18. macrumors 68030

    baryon

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2009
    #18
    So many people aren't going to upgrade yet, as they'll wait for developers to implement all their features (such as full screen and auto-save, etc), but then developers will say "well why should we implement our features if no one's using the OS?".

    This is why there should be enough useful features for the user, that work straight out of the box, so that they upgrade.

    If not, they should just make it as cheap as Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard had almost nothing for the user, so people had no motivation to upgrade. But Apple knew that the only way to get developers to harvest all the stuff they put into Snow Leopard (the stuff they consider will be important for future OSs as well), is to get most people to adopt the OS. To get people to adopt, well they made it really cheap and had a handful of features that may make it worth it for the average person (Quick Time X, Put Back to Trash (never works) and I can't really think of any more at the moment).

    I think Lion does have some new interesting features, such as the GUI refinements, a slightly better Preview and Quick Look, Year View in Calendar, and all that sort of stuff. There's so many of these, in fact, that I may upgrade just for those.

    Then the "real" stuff, such as Resume, Auto Save, Versions, Full Screen, etc, will come later. Maybe by 10.8 all of those will work with every App (though I really can't see the most important Apps for me doing anything about it: Adobe).
     
  19. macrumors 65816

    maclaptop

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    #19
    I stay very close to all the news reports about Apple "Outside of The Walled Garden". It's the only way to get a balanced view.If one takes things with a healthy dose of scepticism, you can get a pretty good read on things.

    Often it's what's not said that becomes very revealing. Apple's increasingly frequent refusal to acknowledge certain issues, unless there is an overwhelming amount of press and user push back is of concern. Just a few years ago they were more forthcoming, a fact that even Wozniak has highlighted.
     
  20. Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

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    #20
    The front page story on Final Cut Pro echos what I think.

    Apple doesn't really care what we think about this, they're skating to where they think the puck will be and if recent history is any indication they are right.

    B
     
  21. thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2008
    #21
    don't get me wrong, i think autosave/resume/versions/fullscreen are good ideas, but i refuse to be an economic pawn paying for a feature in 10.7 that won't be adopted until i'm paying for it again in 10.8 (or 11, or mac iOS, or whatever). i remember getting a 64-bit powermac g5 in 2005, specifically being told "you'll be futureproof with 64-bit" and of course them abandoning powerpc before the OS matured to being able to run 64-bit gui apps. if there's nothing in lion out of the box worth it to me, i'll skip it or just get it by default with my next computer purchase.
     
  22. macrumors 65816

    maclaptop

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    #22
    That's true. A reflection of the new Apple.

    They used to create based on their brilliance AND what customers wanted. Now what customers want is given little merit. It's now all about astronomical profits, bragging rights, and executives personal wealth.

    I'm a capitalist and all for Apple's success, but I do believe they don't need to act so pompous, arrogant, and as they are the only one that knows what's best for us.

    Sure to those who don't think for themselves, Apples way works.

    But for knowledgeable professionals the rapid race for retail supremacy and appliance like simplicity, is discouraging.
     
  23. macrumors 68020

    steviem

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Location:
    New York, Baby!
    #23
    Where do you think Apple wants the developers of their iOS apps to do their developing?

    Apple will always have their 'trucks' for developers and more professional people.

    Although one thing seems to be for certain, and that is some business users are getting less and less need to carry full blown computers with them.
     
  24. Moderator

    balamw

    Staff Member

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    New England
    #24
    For me it is far too early to tell. Will have to wait and see.

    If by "new", you mean Apple since the return of Steve Jobs and return to profitability in 1998.

    Apple has consistently done things that on the surface look foolish, and sometimes user-hostile, but in retrospect look prescient as to where the puck (i.e. business) will be. When they misstep, course corrections are quick and put them back on track. (e.g. making webapps the only apps for iPhone 1 was a misstep).

    B
     
  25. macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    #25
    "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." — Henry Ford.
    It's a well known fact that most people don't know what they want, and the problem with a lot of "pro" users (whatever that may entail; it seems to have more and more of a snobby undertone with every passing day), is that they only focus on their own limited viewpoint.
    I wonder: what is so wrong with simplicity? Do people prefer coming to grips with their computer, or getting their work done?
     

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