Why, it's enough to....

Discussion in 'Buying Tips, Advice and Discussion (archive)' started by Moxiemike, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. Moxiemike macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #1
    Argh.

    For the past two years, i've been living with and loving my Nikon digital gear. My D100 was flawless in it's execution of everything I asked it to do. Low noise, great image quality, fast to focus, and great colors. It almost became transparent in it's workflow to me. Which is a GOOD thing. Never worried about the big yellow N's gear and how it worked for me.

    Same with my D2h, except, man, is it fast.

    But the thing that was ALWAYS key to me is white balance. Like when I used to shoot film and used warming filters, or threw on a tungsten gel to balance color when i used a flash. To me, getting the right color is pretty important, and digital white balance has been a GODSEND. I wouldn't get half the photos I take if I didn't have proper fine-tuning capabilities to my RAW files. Even using presets, the WB needs to be tweaked. And I like the VERY CLOSE (within 100k) white balances I get in Camera. And I love tweaking them to work properly.

    We all know about Canon and Nikon wars. I've stood by the big yellow N and helped show examples about how, in reality, the image quality on both was prettttty darn close if not really similar in the end product.

    All in all, i'm thrilled to shoot with my Nikon gear--a+! And of course, i'm looking on and thinking about buying a D2x.

    Until.....

    Nikon encrypts D2x Metadata

    Ouch. So in PS CS, I have to manually set white balance for all of my photos. Personally, I love PS CS Raw Converter much better than Nikon Capture. And when I have a weekend's worth of events, 500+ shots, I'm really not looking forward to processing them all for white balance--especially monster 12.4 mp files.

    This really has made my day crappy, as i was going to buy the 17-55 f2.8 Nikkor and get used to that, and once a few wedding folks sign on this week, I was gonna pick up a D2x.

    Now, and I'm SERIOUSLY thinking this, I might sell my D2h and D100 and grab a 1d Mk II and a 20d. The infinitely crappy thing about this is that I would miss a lot of things that Nikon HAS at the moment that Canon simply doesn't:

    • i-TTL flash exposure rocks my socks for events & wedding

    • I still prefer big yellow N's ergos, though I could get used to Canon....they just seem to slap too much into their menus. Blah.

    • My BELOVED 12-24 nikkor. No other canon or 3rd party lens comes close to this lens AND can accept 77mm filters. Right? Correct me if i'm not up to date

    • The 17-55. Canon doesn't have an "L" lens similar to this range. The closest is the 24-70. Great lens, but I want more wide for my investment.

    Blah. This has made for a REALLY lame morning. I hope Nikon realizes that, frankly, the choice of White balance BELONGS TO THE PHOTOGRAPHER and they shouldn't lock out photographers & let them choose their 3rd party raw converter or Nikon Capture. NC is much better than what Canon and Fuji ship with their cams, but still. It's ugly and slow on the mac. If NC was GOOD, it wouldn't be so bad. If it came FREE it would be better. But it's slow, kludgly, and $150. $150 is another 2gb memory card, a couple filters, a new crumpler bag, half the price of my 35mm f2.0 lens that I use 70% of the time, so in essence, it's not money well spent. And should come STANDARD on a $5000 camera.

    I just don't think I can deal with dropping $5k on a camera that won't work with my favorite image editor 100%. Especially since my clients generally buy my stuff because they love the colors I get. This kills mine and many photographers workflow. It kills our color-correcting. Kills a lot fo the GREAT engineering reasons to buy Nikon.

    Blah. This after the Macromedia-Adobe thing and i'm starting to wonder more and more about companies in this day and age. It's definitely becoming more one-sided, in favor of the big corps.

    I want some thoughts from Chip, iGary, Mr. A, revenuee, neut, 5300cs and the other photo geeks. And anyone else feeling the sting-- this COULD HAPPEN to those D50's and D70s' coming out too.... i'd bet my bottom dollar it will....

    Blah.

    m
     
  2. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #2
    I hope you sent an email to Nikon, to tell them about your concerns. Tell them how that "little" change (?) will really mess up your workflow.

    What reason do they have to encrypt this, anyway? :confused:
     
  3. cubist macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2002
    Location:
    Muncie, Indiana
    #3
    That's sickening. Your data belongs to you, not to them. By encrypting your property without your permission, so they can prevent you from using it, they are stealing from you. You should sue them. There's no justification for it. At the very least, you should organize a boycott of Nikon until it's fixed.

    Can you downgrade the firmware in the camera?
     
  4. iGary Guest

    iGary

    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Location:
    Randy's House
    #4
    That's wicked lame. I always shoot RAW + Large JPG, and nine times out of ten I adjust WB either with the WB tool in PS CS RAW conversion, or manually with the temperature slider.

    Canon's Image Browser SUCKS - always has. I had a Nikon P&S 4300, and I wasn't impressed with their RAW engine either. C1 is way to expensive for the Mac platform for what it does.

    The 20D has some REALLY nice custom WB and bracketing tools for in camera processing, which is why I always shoot RAW+JPG. Proper WB can make or break an image, it is dissapointing to see Nikon make this move.

    Time for a 1D MKII ?

    :D ;)
     
  5. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #5
    It's actually already in the D2x and D2hs. Basically, it forces the white balance to a default setting only in Adobe Camera Raw.

    Their reason for encrypting is CRAZY business to me: it seems they want people to use their Nikon Capture editing software for converting raw files. The truly messed up thing: these new D2x raw files WON'T be compatible with the Adobe Raw format (DNG i think?) that aims to standardize raw format. So in a few years, what happens when Nikon decides to stop legacy support for old cameras like the D2x? 1000s of useless raw files... and we won't be able to convert them to a format that WILL be readable because of the encryption equaling adobe's not supporting the file format as convertible to DNG.

    This is a HUGE issue, and I plan on speaking to my NPS rep ASAP. If he doesn't give me some peace of mind, I think it could be off to canon-ville.

    blah.
     
  6. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #6
    Time for a 1d MKII indeed. And while I like the camera's image quality, and could deal with the ergos, I'm just wondering: what will replace my beloved and useful 12-24 Nikkor? Will the flash system work as well as i-TTL? Is Canon going to counterpart Nikon's FANTASTIC 17-55 f2.8 Nikkor lens? What about the slow (relatively) start-up of the 1d mk II? I know Canon's 17-40 L and 16-35 L are no match for the similar Nikkors. I love my wide angle!! Blah

    Right after I spend years learning the "curve" in digital....

    It really is dissappointing, especially since, from what i've seen, the D2x looks like it REALLY is the real deal, and Nikon is back in the DSLR race. With upcoming D200 and D70s/D50, it looks like the race MIGHT have been interesting.

    However, I think Nikon might lose the entire pro market if they decide to TRY and go head to head with Adobe. Photographers switch systems like pimps switch hoes. But giving up Photoshop for Nikon Capture? Christ, it's enough to make me laugh.

    The sad thing-- this will surely be bad for competition. As Nikon drives Canon and vice versa. Olympus could step up, but aside form Oly, who's even close to making pro gear on the DSLR end? Not konica-minolta. Not Pentax. Not Fuji. Maybe Kodak but not really. Sigma? I doubt it. For pros, there's really only Nikon and Canon in that high-end.

    I say blah again.

    Hmmm. bhphoto 1d mk II for $3500 after rebate. if I sell my D2h for $1750.................

    stop. stop stop. argggggh. it's like i'm suddenly in a Jean Paul Sartre story.
     
  7. iGary Guest

    iGary

    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Location:
    Randy's House
    #7
    All the new Canon's come with E-TTL II. :D

    I threw away Noise Ninja after getting the 20D - the 300D was noisy as hell.

    The 1D has a .2 sec start time.

    I have a 12-24 Sigma, which I love.

    Seriously, though, I hope you do not have to switch, but have you gone over to fredmiranda in the Nikon section to see what the guys over there think?

    Also have a look in the wildlife, landscape and cityscape sections and see the images being captured with the 1D. Stunning.

    Wish I could do more to help!
     
  8. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #8
    Yea. My niggle with the Sigma 12-24 is that it doesn't accept front thread filters, of which I have a wealth of. So there's another expense. It just doesn't stop! :)

    the general consensus with people, at least on dpreview.com, is that this is the biggest bonehead move Nikon has made.

    I haven't researched enough about e-ttl II but i'm lucky enough to retouch images for a guy who shoots the mk II and the images look pretty ok. Comparable to the D2h.

    BUt all in all, I hope Nikon isn't this dumb. if canon became th eonly player in pro dslr.... it'd be like Adobe owning Macromedia. Oh wait. That's already happened. Ouch
     
  9. iGary Guest

    iGary

    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Location:
    Randy's House
    #9
    Yeah, I use gels on the 12-24.

    Although I'm a big Canon fan, I hope you don't have to go through all of the hassle of changing over.

    Good luck!
     
  10. cemorris macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    #10
    This is a very popular Canon L lens that may fit your 18-55 needs, not sure what speed you are looking for

    Canon 17-40

    It gets good reviews from what I have seen.
     
  11. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #11
    The 17-40 would definitely be on my list if it were a little longer and f2.8.

    It's really maddening trying to "match" lenses between the two systems. Like iGary says, he hopes I don't have to switch-- and i don't as well-- if at the VERY least because it's obviously not good for competition in the long run.

    I mean, if canon gets 99% of the pro DSLR sales, whats to stop them from doing the same thing Nikon has done, only encrypting ALL of the data. History is showing us Canon plays nicer with Adobe than Nikon, but man. What happens down the road?

    This combined with ADBE buying MACR is definitely not a good sign for the creative/media arts people....

    has started me dreaming about the Apple iSLR, 12mp, 8 fps, brushed aluminum case, uses Leica lenses.....

    hah
     
  12. djbahdow01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Location:
    Northeast, CT
    #12
    Well i know it might not be the same but there is a chance you can use you Nikkor lenses on the Canon if you turn to the dark side and jump over to Canon. BHPhotovideo has a ring adapter for the Canon cameras to accept Nikon lenses therefore you can have your lenses and have full use of the RAW stuff from Canon. Heres the link, just happened to run by it today while searching for teleconverters.

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=197094&is=REG

    Atleast i think this will work. Lets just hope Nikon realises they shouldn't be doing this and releases a firmware that corrects it.
     
  13. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #13
    Interesting. You know, the more i think about it, the more i think "hmm. if nikon gets away with this, who's next?"

    Canon has voiced displeasure over DNG from Adobe. It could be K-Minolta, Kodak, Fuji, Sigma..... even swtiching, i'm not guaranteed that my raw files will work in the future.

    Lameness.

    Maybe i'll just go back to film. haha
     
  14. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Location:
    VA
    #14
    I have to agree with that one. Only the photographer *knows* how the image is supposed to look - and if you make it a pain to adjust the white balance, its like trying to take a pic with a point and shoot, not a professional camera.

    I'm thinking if Nikon gets enough flak from owners, that they'll fix this problem eventually.

    Good luck...

    D
     
  15. Moxiemike thread starter macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #15
    So. I found some time to find a D2x in my area and went down, CF in hand, to take some shots. First off, the D2x is incredible, as fast as the D2h, and the image quality looked great for my shots of the rip-off camera stores counter. We won't show them here. ;)

    What PS CS RAW Converter can't see is custom white balance. You can still certainly adjust white balance, but, until you do, the preview is a nasty greenish color (on my screen. I don't know about this overall). Now. The EXIF data tells you the Kelvin rating which you shot at. So essentially, you just go and input that into the white balance setting on ACR.

    [edit] key thing to notice-- the PREVIEW is greenish. if you justy bypass all raw settings, the images come up in the proper color. It's really f'ed up that big yellow N wants to make sure I can't adjust their proprietary white balance algorithms. In a lot of ways, it's what influenced my purchase od the D2h and future x-- the WB is incredible! So it's a preview/edit thing. Not a final image thing, should you decide to not adjust white balance. Hence it's a "lossless" thing, but still agitating as all get out. [/edit]

    It's a workaround, and it works, but really nikon, just an inconvenience!

    (BTW. I'm using PS CS 2 already. shhhh).

    Anyhoo. I can run batches on this, with no problem. So it's only a *bit* of an annoyance, but horribly annoying still. I also spoke with my NPS guy, and Nikon America didn't know about this until they saw it online-- it's a nikon hq decision-- so far removed in Japan, it's like they're holed up in a fortress and no one's allowed out! Hah.

    So. He called some people, and a bunch of NikonUSA employees have already lodged "complaints" to Nikon HQ about this.

    Also, there's at least one RAW converter who's name shall not be mentioned so they don't get slapped down, who'll be fully supporting the D2x in raw. So my first step?

    Buy the RAW converter because it just kicks everyone's arse, even PS CS, in speed of batches and image quality. Insane really. I wish I'd have been using it all this time.

    Second, we'll wait for the fallout. But NPS knows that my D2x order is cancelled, and apparantly i'm not the only one. With internal NUSA people complaining and lots of NPS orders and pre-orders for the D2x giving trouble... i think this might go by the wasteside soon enough. I guess I'll wait, take some awesome pics in the meantime with my lovely new raw converter by my side, and see what happens.

    BTW. D70s and D50 announced today.
     

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