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brofkand

Suspended
Jun 11, 2006
1,286
3,197
I have the Fusion w/ 24GB flash and haven't had any issues. This iMac is fast, and I hardly ever notice any slowdowns (really only when I'm in my Windows 7 VM is when I notice the spinning disk).

I am in Affinity Photo and other software daily, and I work with 23MP DNG RAW files.

I play some games, like SimCity 4 and Cities: Skylines. Nothing super advanced of course, but the AMD GPU (and i5 CPU) is plenty fast for these games and the filters/effects in Affinity Photo.

I also "only" have the stock 8GB of RAM, and rarely does my Mac have to resort to virtual memory (again, usually only when I'm in my Windows 7 VM). Within the next year or so I'll probably double to 16GB (for less than $50!), but that will likely last me until the iMac stops getting OS updates from Apple.

Moral of the story: buy what you want and need. Don't let other people spend your money for you.
 

Ebenezum

macrumors 6502a
Mar 31, 2015
782
260
It's for adding an additional abstraction layer where the partition isn't contained as a subset of a physical drive. This enables having a partition that uses physical drives with different idiosyncrasies and managing the distribution between those drives according to the advantages of the corresponding drives without affecting the aspect of the partition that is exposed to anything beyond the storage management tier of the operating system.
Ideally, this should be done at a pure hardware level for the sake of better encapsulation, but for now, Fusion Drive is a technology managed by OS X.

I am not certain if i understood correctly but it seems it won't give any practical benefits for my needs because I currently have a Mac Mini, SSD has OS & software and most often used data, hard drive has rarely used other data?
 

makrom

macrumors regular
Nov 4, 2015
154
29
I am not certain if i understood correctly but it seems it won't give any practical benefits for my needs because I currently have a Mac Mini, SSD has OS & software and most often used data, hard drive has rarely used other data?

Well it goes in that direction.
You would put an OS as well as applications on an SSD while putting media files on an HDD. You are doing so since you assume that it is beneficial if the data you put on the SSD it's accessed faster. This matters much more for applications than for media files, as long as they are just streamed into the RAM while being played back. And many people notice that 128 GB isn't enough since their OS and application data exceed this amount.
Options to optimize this situation are limited. We could start putting applications that we rarely use on the HDD, but unless we have some kind of usage tracker running, this would just be a rough best guess. And we don't even think about spreading application data across several drives, let alone OS data. Although it's obvious that we could free up a lot of SSD capacity if we would only keep the often used data on it. Most applications simply won't cope with this since they work with relative file locations on the file system. But applications don't care about drives. All they care about are file paths. So if the file system isn't a subset of a drive, applications work just as well.

Now this is exactly what Fusion Drive does. It spreads a "partition" (the term obviously isn't correct) across 2 drives, tracks the usage of data and it accordingly on these drives. One might think that finetuning on a sub application level doesn't make much of a difference. But from my experience, the difference between actually loaded application data and total data is huge. Except for some rare cases where some data is analyzed during startup, it's a safe estimate that programs don't need more data being read during startup than what they use in memory. Usually, it's quite the opposite, programs in memory contain a lot of data that was compressed when it was read.

I'm quite confident that most people don't require more than 128 GB of quickly accessible data if the distribution works perfectly. Since no one outside of Apple seems to know how FD works exactly, it's not quite clear how near to perfection the current implementation already works. All I can say is that it works surprisingly well for me. The only time I can even notice the disadvantage of an HDD is when I do stuff like copying a lot of videos or photos from or to my external SSD. When copying over network, USB stick, external HDD, SD card, etc. the FD HDD is never the part that is slowing down the process.

I totally accept that there are people who aren't the ideal target audience of the FD, namely people who have to deal a lot with huge files or those who are very noise sensitive. But most of the critique about the FD is coming from people who seem to address it from a theoretical point of view without appreciating how it actually works.
They often say things like "I got more application data than the FD has SSD capacity", "Anything other than putting the whole OS on the SSD is just stupid", "I work a lot with big files" (it depends much more whether you need quick access speeds for these files), "SSD are much more reliable than HDD" (actual data on that isn't that conclusive, but doesn't actually show a huge advantage for either drive type), and so on.
 

Ebenezum

macrumors 6502a
Mar 31, 2015
782
260
Thank you, nicely summarised.

I might try Fusion Drive if Apple would provide sufficient documentation how it works, currently I don't see any reason to consider it.
 

bent christian

Suspended
Nov 5, 2015
509
1,966
I have the Fusion w/ 24GB flash and haven't had any issues. This iMac is fast, and I hardly ever notice any slowdowns (really only when I'm in my Windows 7 VM is when I notice the spinning disk).

I am in Affinity Photo and other software daily, and I work with 23MP DNG RAW files.

I play some games, like SimCity 4 and Cities: Skylines. Nothing super advanced of course, but the AMD GPU (and i5 CPU) is plenty fast for these games and the filters/effects in Affinity Photo.

I also "only" have the stock 8GB of RAM, and rarely does my Mac have to resort to virtual memory (again, usually only when I'm in my Windows 7 VM). Within the next year or so I'll probably double to 16GB (for less than $50!), but that will likely last me until the iMac stops getting OS updates from Apple.

Moral of the story: buy what you want and need. Don't let other people spend your money for you.

I have been very happy with the 1TB Fusion drive as well. OSX starts up in just a few seconds. Working in Photoshop and Adobe Premiere simultaneously doesn't even touch 4GB of RAM. Rendering video out of Premiere puts the i5 quad-core at about 50%. This is the only time I have every heard the fan using it over a two week period. Rendering to the Desktop takes about 1minute 30 seconds for every minute of footage. This may not work for everyone, but it's great, coming from where I did.
 

twilexia

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2015
282
59
I've had the fusion drive for about a week now.

Everything is just as fast as the SSD model except for one thing, and you guessed it, it's large file transfers within the drive.

I didn't really feel the pain when loading media from my 7200rpm external HDDs because the data transfer limit is your external HDD read speed.

But I did feel the pain when I attempted to move 400 GB from one folder to another within the fusion drive. The HDD slowed down to a crawl at around 35 MB/s at around 20GB transferred. That's Megabytes not megabits. This is most likely due to the large number of random writes involved with moving over folders with lots of random small files in there, as the seek time slows down the speed dramatically. For large file blocks the sequential write speed of the FDD would probably be higher, although I don't really have a file large enough to test. Overall it would have taken at least an hour to move all that 400 GB whereas on the SSD it would probably have taken less than 2 minutes.
 
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daanodinot

macrumors 6502
Mar 26, 2015
366
878
Use cases differ of course, but in my case pure flash feels so much more elegant. When I think about my situation, the only things that I need constant access to are the apps and a handful of files. With a Fusion drive, many gigabytes of files are just sitting there... for what exactly? I'd rather have more flash storage for more apps and games than a constantly spinning hard drive for files I pretty much never have to access. In the rare cases that I do, I can just take the external hard drive out of my drawer and put it back in when I'm done. It's cool, it's quiet, it's fast, it's perfect!

In my case, the only downside is that this requires two external hard drives (one for backup) instead of one, but that's about it.

I think for most people pure flash is the way to go. How much is the trickier part.
 

MultiFinder17

macrumors 68030
Jan 8, 2008
2,720
2,039
Tampa, Florida
I rolled my own Fusion Drive in my 2011 iMac using its original 500GB HDD and a 240GB Kingston SSD, and I couldn't be happier with it. I have around 350 out of the 740GB used on it, and the machine absolutely flies.
 
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makrom

macrumors regular
Nov 4, 2015
154
29
I've had the fusion drive for about a week now.

Everything is just as fast as the SSD model except for one thing, and you guessed it, it's large file transfers within the drive.

I didn't really feel the pain when loading media from my 7200rpm external HDDs because the data transfer limit is your external HDD read speed.

But I did feel the pain when I attempted to move 400 GB from one folder to another within the fusion drive. The HDD slowed down to a crawl at around 35 MB/s at around 20GB transferred. That's Megabytes not megabits. This is most likely due to the large number of random writes involved with moving over folders with lots of random small files in there, as the seek time slows down the speed dramatically. For large file blocks the sequential write speed of the FDD would probably be higher, although I don't really have a file large enough to test. Overall it would have taken at least an hour to move all that 400 GB whereas on the SSD it would probably have taken less than 2 minutes.

An SSD wouldn't have been able to do it that quickly, nonetheless it would have been much faster than the HDD.
But did you actually intend to copy these files on the same drive? If you wanted to move them to another location on the same drive it should have merely been a matter of seconds (or fractions there of).

One of the main issues when copying from an HDD onto itself is that most file copying implementations, including the one used by finder, try to do the reading and writing part simultaneously. But since HDDs can only do one operation at a time, it constantly skips between the two operations, meaning constantly rearranging its heads. The closer those switching intervals get to the access speed of the HDD, the worse it gets.
Smarter solutions use caching and slower alternations between reading and writing on the HDD. If it would cache 1 GB, the 27" drive should take like 4-5s to read or write that amount of data, making an access time of 10 ms irrelevant.
 
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twilexia

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2015
282
59
An SSD wouldn't have been able to do it that quickly, nonetheless it would have been much faster than the HDD.
But did you actually intend to copy these files on the same drive? If you wanted to move them to another location on the same drive it should have merely been a matter of seconds (or fractions there of).

One of the main issues when copying from an HDD onto itself is that most file copying implementations, including the one used by finder, try to do the reading and writing part simultaneously. But since HDDs can only do one operation at a time, it constantly skips between the two operations, meaning constantly rearranging its heads. The closer those switching intervals get to the access speed of the HDD, the worse it gets.
Smarter solutions use caching and slower alternations between reading and writing on the HDD. If it would cache 1 GB, the 27" drive should take like 4-5s to read or write that amount of data, making an access time of 10 ms irrelevant.

Hmmm yes I did intend to copy from the same drive to itself thinking that it would show me the read/write speed. But you're right that the drive can't handle doing both at once.

How would you recommend testing the read/write speed of the HDD portion of the fusion drive? The black magic test doesn't work as it only reaches the SSD part.
 

makrom

macrumors regular
Nov 4, 2015
154
29
Hmmm yes I did intend to copy from the same drive to itself thinking that it would show me the read/write speed. But you're right that the drive can't handle doing both at once.

How would you recommend testing the read/write speed of the HDD portion of the fusion drive? The black magic test doesn't work as it only reaches the SSD part.

Well you could use an external SSD (or some fast RAID0 or 5) in case you have that. Other than that, I'm affraid you need some artificial benchmark. It would need to provoke writing to the HDD somehow, not sure what the best way would be to reliably achieve that. I think Anand wrote that files above 4 GB are written to the HDD, but that was back in 2013 and even if FD behavoir didn't change in that regard, I don't know how sure we can be that this will always be the case.
My estimates are simply from copying my whole video library from the FD to a Samsung T1. The sheer size alone of ~600 GB is enough to assure that at least the biggest part of it is on the HDD. Since speed was more or less constant, I'd even guess that almost all of it is.
Copying these videos to/from my 2015 MBP is definitely faster than copying to/from my iMac, like 450 vs. 250 MB/s (these aren't actual measurements, just guessing by looking at the bytes progress during copying).
 

twilexia

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2015
282
59
Well you could use an external SSD (or some fast RAID0 or 5) in case you have that. Other than that, I'm affraid you need some artificial benchmark. It would need to provoke writing to the HDD somehow, not sure what the best way would be to reliably achieve that. I think Anand wrote that files above 4 GB are written to the HDD, but that was back in 2013 and even if FD behavoir didn't change in that regard, I don't know how sure we can be that this will always be the case.
My estimates are simply from copying my whole video library from the FD to a Samsung T1. The sheer size alone of ~600 GB is enough to assure that at least the biggest part of it is on the HDD. Since speed was more or less constant, I'd even guess that almost all of it is.
Copying these videos to/from my 2015 MBP is definitely faster than copying to/from my iMac, like 450 vs. 250 MB/s (these aren't actual measurements, just guessing by looking at the bytes progress during copying).

I'm curious maybe if you wanted to run a test? Maybe time how long it takes to copy 50GB of video from your fusion drive to the T1 and then I think we can do a simple 50,000 MB/time to get the MB/S. Of course part of this will be affected by the SSD speed but it would be interesting to see. Thank you!
 

bent christian

Suspended
Nov 5, 2015
509
1,966
How would you recommend testing the read/write speed of the HDD portion of the fusion drive? The black magic test doesn't work as it only reaches the SSD part.

I have been using the Blackmagic speed test on my Fusion drive the last few days: 5GB read/write option. The best scores were consistently in the 350-280 range. On some read/write sessions, it will drop to the 150 to 180 range. I am guessing these are writes to the hard drive.
 

makrom

macrumors regular
Nov 4, 2015
154
29
I'm curious maybe if you wanted to run a test? Maybe time how long it takes to copy 50GB of video from your fusion drive to the T1 and then I think we can do a simple 50,000 MB/time to get the MB/S. Of course part of this will be affected by the SSD speed but it would be interesting to see. Thank you!

Yeah I can do that but won't be home until Friday. I got my MBP with me but I guess I could just measure the T1's speed with it.
 
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daniel1948

macrumors 6502
Oct 20, 2015
342
186
Spokane, WA
I don't hate fusion drives. But I chose SSD for my new iMac (arriving later this week if they keep their word) because I have a purely emotional preference for fewer moving parts. My outgoing computer (a decade-old iMac) has never given me any trouble. Its HDD has worked perfectly. But I'd rather not have the moving parts of an HDD. And as quiet as the drive is, I find it annoying, because it makes me think "wear and tear." The fusion drive would likely have lasted the life of the new computer, worked perfectly, and been basically as fast. But just knowing it has moving parts would have annoyed me. Sometimes I buy things I don't need just because I like them.
 

crouchingtiger

macrumors member
Feb 15, 2004
48
28
I think Fusion Drive is brilliant, and so much better than having two split drives (easier to back up and most importantly ensures that you are getting maximal use of the SSD by caching data and directing all writes first to SSD).

My only beef is that I wish Apple would enable separate BTO of the amount of SSD available for the Fusion Drive. I am currently using a homespun version and find that 512 GB SSD pairs very well with 2 TB hard drive. The Apple 3 GB Fusion Drive only has 128 GB of SSD...
 

twilexia

macrumors 6502
Oct 16, 2015
282
59
I think Fusion Drive is brilliant, and so much better than having two split drives (easier to back up and most importantly ensures that you are getting maximal use of the SSD by caching data and directing all writes first to SSD).

My only beef is that I wish Apple would enable separate BTO of the amount of SSD available for the Fusion Drive. I am currently using a homespun version and find that 512 GB SSD pairs very well with 2 TB hard drive. The Apple 3 GB Fusion Drive only has 128 GB of SSD...

Agreed. If only there was a way to get the 512 GB SSD plus 3TB Hard drive, I would have gone for that in a heartbeat.
 

sbrown02

macrumors newbie
Oct 25, 2013
15
2
I really appreciate this thread for shining some light on the Fusion drive debate. I myself am about to purchase a new 27 inch iMac and am debating the merits of getting the 2 or 3TB Fusion drive instead of the 512GB or 1TB Flash storage. I can afford flash storage, however the practical (fiscally conservative) side of me is questioning why spend that much more when perhaps a Fusion drive will suffice for 95% of what we do.

So that said, I have a few questions for those of you using the 2 or 3TB Fusion Drives. On our current system we have a very large Photo's library (like +120GB) that we use regularly. I also make occasional family videos (usually 1080p or less, not 4K). My question is this, would the 2 or 3TB Fusion drive slow to a halt when loading the Photo's library and working within the library since the library is about as large as all of the Flash storage built into the 2/3TB Fusion drive? Same with video files, does a Fusion Drive get bogged down and become slow when working with really large files?

I will say that when I went into the Apple store to try out the iMac with Fusion drives they were very quick to load apps in general so I'm not worried about boot times, the OS being slow or even apps loading fast. I just worry about getting it and then over time it starts to slow to a drag when I'm working with our large photo library, video creation projects etc. I don't want that problem and am willing to spend the extra to not have to worry about it if that's what it takes

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and perspectives.
 

bent christian

Suspended
Nov 5, 2015
509
1,966
I really appreciate this thread for shining some light on the Fusion drive debate. I myself am about to purchase a new 27 inch iMac and am debating the merits of getting the 2 or 3TB Fusion drive instead of the 512GB or 1TB Flash storage. I can afford flash storage, however the practical (fiscally conservative) side of me is questioning why spend that much more when perhaps a Fusion drive will suffice for 95% of what we do.

So that said, I have a few questions for those of you using the 2 or 3TB Fusion Drives. On our current system we have a very large Photo's library (like +120GB) that we use regularly. I also make occasional family videos (usually 1080p or less, not 4K). My question is this, would the 2 or 3TB Fusion drive slow to a halt when loading the Photo's library and working within the library since the library is about as large as all of the Flash storage built into the 2/3TB Fusion drive? Same with video files, does a Fusion Drive get bogged down and become slow when working with really large files?

I will say that when I went into the Apple store to try out the iMac with Fusion drives they were very quick to load apps in general so I'm not worried about boot times, the OS being slow or even apps loading fast. I just worry about getting it and then over time it starts to slow to a drag when I'm working with our large photo library, video creation projects etc. I don't want that problem and am willing to spend the extra to not have to worry about it if that's what it takes

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and perspectives.

The Fusion algorithm intelligently moves the most used files to the SSD. Not necessarily an entire application, the whole OS, or an entire folder of photos. I don't think there is any way for us to know which drives file reside on. Files are adjusted periodically as usage changes.


For reference:

I have a 2015 21.5" iMac, 1TB Fusion (w/5400RPM drive).

I use a 2010 iMac at work (7200RPM hard drive).

Blackmagic tests show write speeds roughly two times faster on the 2015 model than on the 7200RPM drive once files hit the 5400RPM portion of the Fusion drive (80-100 MB/s || 7200 vs. 150-180 MB/s || 5400). Using the SSD portion, speed writes hit 250-325 MB/s.

The 5400RPM drives Apple is using now are almost twice as fast as the 7200RPM drives they were using five years ago. I imagine the 7200RPM drives used now will show an even bigger gain.
 

joema2

macrumors 68000
Sep 3, 2013
1,645
864
...we have a very large Photo's library (like +120GB) that we use regularly. I also make occasional family videos (usually 1080p or less, not 4K). My question is this, would the 2 or 3TB Fusion drive slow to a halt when loading the Photo's library and working within the library since the library is about as large as all of the Flash storage built into the 2/3TB Fusion drive? Same with video files, does a Fusion Drive get bogged down and become slow when working with really large files?...

The simple answer is no, a 2 or 3TB FD will not become excessively slow in those scenarios. I have a 2013 iMac 27 with 3TB FD and a 2015 iMac 27 with 1TB SSD on the same desk, right beside each other. I use both for video and photo editing.

If you are copying huge volumes of files to/from the FD it will not maintain the SSD rate but it's not slow. Also importing, exporting and editing raw photos and H264 video is not nearly as I/O intensive as most people think. Anybody who doubts this can watch it themselves using Activity Monitor or iStat Menus. Those are more CPU-bound operations due to the encode/decode required. You will typically high activity on all CPU cores and moderate disk I/O rates. Low-compression video or multicam editing can entail more I/O but those quickly exceed the capacity of most iMac SSDs.

To further clarify, my 1TB iMac can do folder-to-folder file copies at over 500MB/sec -- that means 500MB/sec read *and* 500MB write, or a total I/O rate of over 1,000MB/sec. By contrast my 2013 iMac with 3TB FD can only do about 130 MB/sec -- that means about 130MB/sec read *and* 130MB/sec write or a total I/O rate of about 260MB/sec. If the disk was more full the I/O rate would be even less. You might think the FD iMac would be much slower at editing video, photos, etc.

However -- file copying is not like normal production work editing video or photos. It is moving bulk data from one place to another. That is typically an infrequent utility task that has little CPU and is all I/O. By contrast 1080p H264 video and still editing is largely but not totally CPU-oriented and the I/O rate is usually modest. In most real-world tasks Fusion Drive does pretty well. Both FCP X and Lightroom start up in about the same time on my SSD iMac as my Fusion Drive iMac.

You can definitely find cases where SSD is faster in real world scenario (vs a benchmark) but they are not as common as you'd think. Some of those involve doing things that wouldn't fit on an internal SSD anyway -- say copying 500GB from one folder to the next.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,561
1,672
Redondo Beach, California
I believe the design of the drive is that the OS is on the flash storage, and the OS is continually being accessed.....

It does not work that way. What is on the flash changes and is not fixed by design. The OS moves data such that the stuff you access the most ends up on the flash. It has to guess what to put there based on what you have done in the past. It is not perfect at guessing

SO the entire OS is not on the flash because you have likely not used all of the OS. Some of your data might be on the flash.
 

Max(IT)

Suspended
Dec 8, 2009
8,551
1,662
Italy
It does not work that way. What is on the flash changes and is not fixed by design. The OS moves data such that the stuff you access the most ends up on the flash. It has to guess what to put there based on what you have done in the past. It is not perfect at guessing

SO the entire OS is not on the flash because you have likely not used all of the OS. Some of your data might be on the flash.
Absolutely this.
The common (at least on MacRumors :rolleyes:) idea that "24 Gb SSD are barely enough for the OS itself" is a demonstration of bad comprehension of Fusion Drive's basic logic. It works on a FILE basis, not an APP basis. So only the most frequently accessed parts of the OS are kept on the SSD part of the Fusion Drive.

BTW I don't like the idea of a Fusion Drive on my iMac (not that Im actually going to buy one ...) for other reasons.
First of all, I'm not going to buy a spinner HDD in 2015: I prefer to opt for a smaller internal SSD and an external HDD for data.
Second: I'm concerned about durability of a Fusion Drive solution. I have no data to support any theory, but what about a relatively small SSD (24 or 128 Gb) continuously written to almost full over the time ?
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,448
43,370
SO the entire OS is not on the flash because you have likely not used all of the OS. Some of your data might be on the flash.
Well that only means then with a tiny flash storage on the current Fusion drives, performance is going to be hampered. The heuristics for putting frequently used data on 128GB of storage will be different then that of the the 24GB, i.e., a lot less will fit so it will be on the slow hard drive.

The intent of the Fusion drive is to give you large storage and near SSD performance for your frequently used files. with 24GB of storage, a lot of frequently used files just won't fit on the small flash unit. How much it will slow down will be dictated by each user's habits. For me, I can see it hampering me, since I deal with some largish files in Lightroom, photoshop and what not.
 

makrom

macrumors regular
Nov 4, 2015
154
29
Well that only means then with a tiny flash storage on the current Fusion drives, performance is going to be hampered. The heuristics for putting frequently used data on 128GB of storage will be different then that of the the 24GB, i.e., a lot less will fit so it will be on the slow hard drive.

The intent of the Fusion drive is to give you large storage and near SSD performance for your frequently used files. with 24GB of storage, a lot of frequently used files just won't fit on the small flash unit. How much it will slow down will be dictated by each user's habits. For me, I can see it hampering me, since I deal with some largish files in Lightroom, photoshop and what not.

I don't think it's commonly accepted that the 24GB is worse than the 128GB one. The only question is by how much. Obviously this depends on 1) the usage profile and 2) the behavior of FD.
I can see how a System with a 24GB SSD could be fast enough for many people if the algorithm works well enough. But I'm sure that it will be noticeably slower for more ambitious users, even if the algorithm works perfectly.
I wouldn't worry too much about photos though, at least not with the 27" models. There are some operations that are limited by I/O, but most are constrained by CPU.
I'm not sure whether FD also factures in interaction speed in addition to access frequency for prioritizing what goes to the SSD, but ideally it would.
 
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