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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by cr2sh, Jan 29, 2003.
We'll see how France and Germany respond...
Oh guess what.
Germany and France screwed the rest of the EU. They have agreed to split the "presidency" of the EU between themselves instead of rotating it on a set basis. They pissed off the rest of the EU in this power grab.
the correct link
http://www.iht.com/ihtsearch.php?id=84202&owner==(International Herald Tribune)&date=20030123133057
bah, never mind, hitman edited his post.
now some honest debate can begin at the un. see, the democratic process works after all.
We never said it didn't.
No one takes France entirely f-in seriously to say the f-in least.... I'm not surprised there...
What a great title for a thread.
1) So what happens after Saddam?
I have yet to see anyone who supports this war explain that to me.
2) How does Iraq pose a threat to the US?
No one has explained that.
3) Who has evidence that Al Qaeda is linked to Iraq in any meaningful way?
No one has provided any evidence. Bush has promised that he has it. For some reason I guess he wants to keep it secret.
Pardon my cynicism, but I have yet to see a justification for war.
And no one misunderestimates George W. Bush ...
Re: working backwards...
You are 100% correct. Their has been no justification for war. If (When) Pres. Bush attacks Iraq it will be setting a new standard of preemptive strike without concrete evidence. This standard is tremendously more dangerous then the "proposed" threat of Iraq
there would be no France if not for the U.S.==there would be no Germany if not for the U.S. Screw both those bastards that are selling things to Saddam under our noses.They like allways are looking out for their own interests.
Believe it or not, there IS justification for military action. Saddam has clearly violated UN resolutions on disarmament. We know he is perfectly willing to kill his own people, and is a power thirsty bastard.
If a you think that a crazy man with tons of power and biological weapons should be allowed to do whatever he wants to his own people and his neighbors, then you must be smoking some pretty strong sh*t.
Saddam might not have the capability to attack the US, but he can attack US interests, and US forces in the area. War against Iraq will be protecting us and the rest of the world from saddam and his followers in the future, when they could possibly posses long range missiles and nuclear weapons.
Do we have to wait for somebody to attack us to put down a tyrant?
The US is not attacking anybody without evidence of wrongdoing.
Doesn't make sense
Let's say Saddam uses some God-awful biological or nuclear weapon, even manages to get it into this country, and kills 20,000 people. Why would he do this? He and his entire country would be wiped off the face of the earth, paved over with Walmarts, McDonald's and Exxon stations and renamed Irakansas.
Look at the buildup of force that we have for an unproven possibility of WOMD. Imagine if he actually used them. He'd lose EVERYTHING...
People seem to think that we are invovled in this to protect Iraqi citizens, US interstes and of course our selves, but lets look at the facts. You say that we cannot allow a tyrannical madman to kill his own people and threaten an entire region. I could name you almost a dozen other countries around the world that live under much worse tyrannical power then those in Iraq. For example Searra Leon is unfer a small, ultra violent, white oligarchy that will shoot Africans on the spot if they are found outside past 11:00pm. Burm (or now the country formally known as) is under the rule of the SLORC which is a militeristic regieme that has completely closed borders off and actively forces migrent farmers to produce peyote for the drug trade and abducts 13 year old girls by the thousands to be forced into their vast sex industry. But lets face it they hold no economic value to this country, and our ploicy is economics over lives. We want to stop Saddam not beause he may (vary big if) be a threat or he is killing his people, but we want better and cheaper acess to his oil. That is not justification to put American citizens in danger.
My 2 cents
Let me know what you think
I beg to differ.
I am currently involved in Model United Nations and had to research Sierra Leone extensively since I am roleplaying the Leonese ambassador.
Where did the "white oligarchy" thing come from? Have you even kept up with current events in the country? They just elected a new president in a landslide election. The vast, draining civil war has been over for almost 2 years now.
Re: Doesn't make sense
Seeing as he already slaughtered 20,000 of his own people with chemical weapons...
I have a greater problem with our reliance on oil, than I do killing people who stand in our way. Darwinism still applies.
President Bush promised money for research in fuel cell cars, thank ****ing god.
I'm going to get flamed for this post.
Re: Re: Doesn't make sense
Because his own people didn't possess the greatest military might and horde of weapons of mass distruction in existence. His own people were helpless sheep- kinda like the way we're viewing the Iraqi army...
Get it now?
Yeah, but probably for thinking Bush's promise will amount to anything. It's a shame that he's wasted the excellent Christine Whitman (ex gov. of New Jersey) on the EPA post, which he obviously thought mean "Environmental Pollution Agency".
The best/worst thing that you can say about Bush is that he believes his own words. That makes him honest and naively scary at the same time.
Re: working backwards...
You aren't cynical, just ignorant. After Saddam, there are many possible solutions. A ceremonial monarchy with an elected parliament would be one option. A UN force similar to that in Bosnia would be another option. In any event, Iraqi opposition groups are working together in an attempt to chart a post-Saddam Iraq. No doubt, there will be a lot of work to be done to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.
How is Iraq a threat to the United States? Let's see, he's already attacked Kuwait causing us to have to expend a whole lot of resources to kick him out of Kuwait. His presence is forcing us to maintain a much higher military profile than would otherwise be needed. He is developing chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and he has shown himself to be more than willing to use these weapons. He has shown a willingness in the past to attack Israel as well, and now does so by proxy. Why don't you let the prime ministers of Spain, Portugal, Italy, the U.K., Hungary, Poland and Denmark and the president of the Czech Republic explain it to you?
Iraq and terrorists? Saddam has a history of harboring terrorists, and there is some evidence that he has been in contact with Al Qaeda elements. However, evidence of Iraq associating with Al Qaeda is not a requirement for removing Saddam from Iraq. His violations of the Gulf War cease fire agreement are sufficient there, and the evidence for that is overwhelming.
Re: Re: working backwards...
Uh, right. the only reason the US needs a big military is because of Saddam. And there is no proof or even a likelihood that he has the capacity for developing nuclear weapons. And there is NO EVIDENCE that Saddam has harbored Al Qaeda. Sorry. If Bush had such evidence Baghdad would already have been bombed. And what violations of the cease-fire are you talking about?
An invasion of Iraq will be an aggressive invasion. The US is engaging in simple conquer for its own economic and strategic benefit. Own up to the fact that this excercise is not a benevolent action, that it is motivated by greed and the will to dominate.
I hardly think a country that won't even own up to the damage it caused in Hiroshima, let alone the fact that it was caused for diplomatic reasons rather than necessity, ought to be allowed to invade any country without heavy scrutiny.
I'm not ignorant my friend. And even if I were it would not matter. Any simpleton can grasp the idea that war ought to always be a last resort, and only under the imminent threat of greater harm than that which would result from the war. Of course, this suggests that you aren't a simpleton, but rather deceived.
Always treat others as ends, never as means.
Yes you do have to wait. That's why the world hasn't crumbled under perpetual war. Look up "just war tradition" on Google and learn a ****ing thing or two. Read the UN Charter. Etc.
By your very logic the people of timor and greece would be justified in blowing up washington. And so would El Salvador. And so would Chile. and so on.
Re: Re: working backwards...
BTW, the letter you link is nothing more than a diplomatic maneuver. Those eight countries, barring the supplicant UK (whose leader is going to crash and burn next election without doubt), are all economic lightweights. This is the main reason they are siding with the US. They're prostituting themselves.
Mr. Havel must be ill if he believes that the American gov't will liberate the Iraq citizens from a despot without replacing him with another.
What kind of monarchy do you have in mind, macfan. Something along the lines of the Shah of Iran or the Saudi Royal Family? What wonders that would do for the average Iraq citizen.
I didn't say that. I said we are forced to keep more forces in the Gulf region (a higher military profile) than we would like to have because of Saddam. If Iraq did not represent such a threat to the region, we wouldn't need to deploy the forces in the numbers that are there.
Apparently, you haven't been listenting to Dr. Khidhir Hamzi, former head of Iraq's nuclear weapons program. Read his testimony and book, then come back and explain that Saddam doesn't have a likelihood of developing nuclear weapons.
Something along the lines of Jordan. Your concern for the average Iraqi citizen is touching and is something many of us share, but your blindness to the current situation endured by the average Iraqi citizen at the hands of Saddam tends to indicate that concern is not particularly sincere.
Why? Bush didn't bomb Afghanistan on September 12th, even though he knew that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan with the support of the Taliban. Why should he order a military strike before the military is ready?
Are you really unaware of the cease-fire requirements? In accepting the terms of the 1991 Gulf War cease-fire, Iraq's leaders agreed to "destroy or render harmless" all weapons of mass destruction. They have not done so, thus they are in violation of the terms of the agreement.
What do you mean, won't own up the the damage it caused? I have always read and seen reports of he terrible damage and destruction to those cities. It is opinion, not fact, that it was not a "necessity" to use the bomb against Japan. I once attended a presentation on nuclear weapons and their use in WW II. The bias of the presentation was in the direction of pacifism and the elimination of nuclear weapons. In thinking about the totality of the situation, I realized that Truman's decision was one that ended the war quickly and saved many lives, both Japanese and American. It was suggested that a naval blockade would have been a better course of action. Indeed, we could have starved millions of Japanese with such a blockade, along with all allied POWs. When I asked whether Truman was in a position to not end the war quickly given the condidtions of POWs and the casualties inherent in an invasion, many of those in attendance were forced to agreed that he made pretty much the only decision he could. It is easy to criticize him in hindsight, but it is by no means a "fact" that he made a poor decision.
First, there are plenty of wars out there. That it isn't worse is has to do with the presence of the United States military around the world, not the charter of the United Nations or the "just war" tradition.
An invasion of Iraq will be a continuation of the war that Saddam started in August of 1990. A war that has continued on a low grade level since the cease-fire was declared.
What a convenient argument. When someone disagrees with your position, they are supplicants and prostitutes. It is probably because you have no answer for the substastance of their statement. Why do you not view the stances of France, Germany, and Russia as diplomatic maneuvers? Are you unable to see them as anything other than disinterested, objective observers in this situation?
That you are unaware of the evidence of Saddam's likelihood of developing nuclear weapons, that you seem unaware of the terms of the cease-fire, that you think the US doesn't admit the destruction of the bombing of Japan during WWII, and that you seem to think ecomomic strength give a country its moral justification for a position indicated that you are indeed ignorant, and yes, it does matter.
After more than a decade, and in the face of continued defiance of the United Nations on the part of Saddam, we have long passed the point where the removal of Saddam offers a lower potential for harm than for him to continue in power. He should have been removed from power in 1991, but he was not. This is not a matter of starting a new war against Saddam. It is about ending the 1990 war.
last reply to macfan
No one is forcing the US to stay in Iraq. The US is there to protect its economic interests. Militarily protecting your economic interests is a choice.
Regarding Dr. Khidhir Hamzi: I don't have time to read his book, but don't think it is necessary. When Iraq was driven from Kuwait it was at the height of its nuclear program. It is widely acknowledged that since the impositions of UN sanctions the economic and research capacity of Iraq has become so reduced that the development of a Nuclear weapon would be impossible.
I'm glad you hope to see a monarchy like Jordan's in Iraq. Nonetheless, you ignore my point that the US is not interested in good government in the middle east. If it were the Saudi's would have a democracy.
On the issue of Iraq and Sept. 11: there is no linking evidence. NONE.
On the cease-fire: whatever. I say resolution, you say cease-fire. Either way, when the agreement was made there was nothing mentioning an invasion should Iraq fail to fully comply, hence all the new Security Council resolutions.
On Hiroshima: I was referring to the crippled Smithsonian exhibit on Hiroshima. There were no pictures of victims allowed. Nor were historians allowed to provide declassified wire transmissions from Japan indicating that Japan was nearly defeated before the Nukes were dropped. These were intercepted by the US. At the least Japan should have been offered the option of surrender at "bomb-point".
" That it isn't worse is has to do with the presence of the United States military around the world, not the charter of the United Nations or the "just war" tradition "
Ok, that statement is just self-evidently arrogant and untrue. In fact, one could easily make a case that in many instances the opposite is true. Again, I ask you to consider Panama, El Salvador, Chile, East Timor, Greece, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etcetera.
On the letter by 8 european countries: it is simply a statement of support. there is no substantive argument contained within it that specifically relates to a material justification of war. Isn't it ironic that Havel would endorse this type of thing? The justification employed here sounds much like the Soviet invasion and occupation of Czech following the progressive Prague Spring.
France Germany and Russia aren't necessarily objective either. Certainly Russia is not, given its oil contracts with Iraq. But will you go further and allow that the US administration is also supremely self-interested in this matter and not the pure moral agent it claims to be?
I'll allow that the war in 1990 never ended if you allow that rest of the world didn't give a **** that it was continued and if you take account of the fact that in the ten years of this war the US has been totally impotent, accomplishing nothing but huge military expenditure at the expense of civilian death and suffering.
And since you've demonstrated that you aren't above name-calling, I'll engage you in like manner. You are a zealot, a madman, a lackey, a morally unfit human being, a fool and quite likely a racist.
That's it. That is as far as I will carry on with this. I hope you have had fun.