You all should be ashamed

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by alex_ant, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #1
    I used to post in this forum a few years ago and I'd like to say that the quality of the postings here in general have gone far downhill. I am disappointed in all of you.

    The conservatives and libertarians have all left, leaving one unified contingent of slavish groupthinkers. Thoughtful discussion used to be necessary out of simple politeness and decency, but with no one left to debate, serious discussion has given away to nothing but cheap shots left and right. You should be ashamed of yourselves. You are very intelligent, but you waste it by making no effort to understand differing points of view and reach innovative, practical solutions to problems. You are caught in a feedback loop, reinforcing your own correctness and assuredness.

    I expect more from liberals. If we really are morally superior, then we should act like it. If we preach tolerance and respect for diversity then we should practice it by tolerating and respecting differing POVs and even our political opponents.

    I would like any non-liberals reading this to know that reading these forums makes me (a liberal who's just as liberal as anyone else here) personally embarrassed to be considered part of this group, and that you are all welcome to chime in whenever you feel like it.

    Time to take a leak.
     
  2. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #2
    Wow... umm... well...

    I'm a libertarian... I'm still here. Although I've been ganged up on in several a political thread. I used to think I was "conservative", then I realized i was to paranoid to be conservative. :p

    This post does seem a little surprising. Most people don't claim to be a member of a group, and then bash that same group of people. :confused:

    I've found liberals to be one of the least open minded sets of people... Everyone that is conservative is obviously cold hearted and mean. ;)
     
  3. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #3
    Well hcuar, although I personally don't agree with your views, I think that having you and others like you and of a wide range of other various political opinions around is essential for a healthy discussion.

    I think that the essential reason this happened to the forums is the basic fear in all of us. We are afraid of the unknown, so we gravitate toward what we know. The conservatives all clump together in their little groups, the liberals all get together in their little self-supporting cliques, and these groups bash each other from afar for no other reason than fear.
     
  4. clayj macrumors 604

    clayj

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    #4
    As a conservative/libertarian, I agree with much of what you said. I've stopped posting in the Politics forum for the most part because every time I do, the response tends to be a sophisticated version of "Bush and Republicans suck". I mean, really, we have folks here with the Soviet hammer-and-sickle in their avatars... could there be any more politically-oriented symbol?
     
  5. Seasought macrumors 65816

    Seasought

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    #5
    Looks like I'm out in the cold then. :(

    I really don't see what good refutation will do in this thread. I've personally found most people, even those that disagree with me to be intelligent, polite posters here on the forums.

    I've found that discussing significant political issues on forums (of any kind) is akin to the snake eating it's own tail. Just my opinion, I've decided to avoid attempting any lengthy debate as it will inevitably degenerate into a complete waste.

    Or perhaps I just want to keep the MacRumors Forum experience friendlier. I hate to hear you've ran into so many distasteful responses that it has warranted this thread. I hope you have better luck in the future.
     
  6. hcuar macrumors 65816

    hcuar

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    #6
    Honestly... I think most of these people are too young to remember the USSR. :rolleyes: I think many people on this board are suffering from a good old fashion case of media influence.
     
  7. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #7
    I'm happy and surprised that you've had a positive experience. I'm basically just lurking, and what I see is very ugly.

    "Bush the child murderer, read the article on Indymedia."
    "You are so right!"
    "I can't believe we havent overthrown the government yet."
    "Hope he gets his own brand of Texas justice (snicker)"
    "Amen, I hate Bush."
    etc.

    That's an overdramatization of course, but not by as much as you'd think.
     
  8. clayj macrumors 604

    clayj

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    #8
    I don't think that's really true. Using a hammer-and-sickle as a personal symbol is no better than those folks who've taken to glamorizing Che Guevara by wearing t-shirts and putting up stickers with his likeness... he was an EVIL man, a man who believed that the West should be dragged down into the gutter with the rest of the world.

    The Soviets killed more people than the Nazis ever did, and we "fought" them and the rest of the Communists for a half-century (not counting China... we're still "fighting" them), much longer than we had to fight the Third Reich. So why is a hammer-and-sickle acceptable here, while a swastika would not be? (Not sticking up AT ALL for Nazis here... I am questioning the double standard. But I half expect that someone will intimate that I am somehow sympathetic toward Nazis. Nothing could be farther from the truth.)
     
  9. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #9
    Clayj, I remember that we had an entertaining little discussion in the John Dumbsmore thread which unfortunately got closed. But I hope you stay in the political forums and keep representing your viewpoint, even if you are an incredibly annoying suit-wearing lib-con jagoff. :D
     
  10. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #10
    I haven't posted too much here lately, as my schedule has not permitted such - so I guess I am looking for some specific examples/clarification of what you describe in your (quoted) post.

    While it is true that many of the long-term posters in this forum (such as IJ, Zimv20, Pseudobrit, mactastic etc) do fall close to one another on the political spectrum, I think it is a little disingenious to say that they are engaging in group-think. From perusing threads in here, I have seen many of the above posters make a considerable effort to understand viewpoints, further intelligent discussion and clarify their points with example. That some do not is always to be expected.

    I also lament the lack of intelligent conservative contributors - as I am pretty centrist myself - but it is hardly the fault of the current posters that we have so few. Many of the conservative posters we have had post in here have had a tendency to cut-and-run with their posts, or descend into hyperbole. It is difficult to have an intelligent discourse under such circumstances, and I have seen quite a bit of frustration in dealing with this.

    So, I too welcome more (thoughtful) conservative posters - and I would say that many in this forum would to - as intelligent discussion does run across party lines (believe it or not).

    Oh, as to the comment regarding the hammer-and-sickle avatar - show some discernment...

    Once again, as I've said, I have not been around to much, so if I am working off of dated information, please set me straight with some examples.

    thanks
     
  11. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #11
    Ohhhh, boy. Okay, I'll bite.

    Groupthinkers? If you read some of the threads, you'll see places where liberals (and others) disagree with each other. Here, here and here are good examples.

    I think you've got the problem backwards. If there were many moderate, traditional conservatives left, I think we could have intelligent debates with them. But when the conservatives who post here merely repeat the neocon company line and either cite sources like Newsmax or don't cite sources at all, it's hard to have an intelligent discussion with them. Their posts are closer to trolling than intellectual fodder.

    Another factor is that this administration invites abuse. I have never seen an administration which has screwed so many people and laughed in their faces. Clinton doesn't come close to comparing. Not even Nixon does. And so it's difficult to discuss any issue that comes out of Washington with anything even resembling intelligent respect, because you know that they don't respect you. That's another thing we can thank the neocons, along with their hate media, for.

    So will I cop to lowering the level of the debate? Hell no. I won't stoop to the levels of blatant, naked propaganda that the other side does, but I sure ain't gonna unilaterally disarm either.
     
  12. clayj macrumors 604

    clayj

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    #12
    Let's play a little word game with your text... I'm going to replace certain words:

    "I think you've got the problem backwards. If there were many moderate, traditional liberals left, I think we could have intelligent debates with them. But when the liberals who post here merely repeat the liberal company line and either cite sources like <insert liberal news source here> or don't cite sources at all, it's hard to have an intelligent discussion with them. Their posts are closer to trolling than intellectual fodder."

    This is what a lot of us conservatives and libertarians feel like is happening here. Yes, I know that a lot of you post links to news stories, but it comes across as a flood of liberal propaganda. It especially sucks that any response that's given is labeled as trolling, post-and-run, etc. Yes, this has happened here, and no, I'm NOT going to go to the effort to search for specific examples. This doesn't change the fact that it has happened.

    The fact is that BOTH sides, liberal and conservative, have moved toward extremist politics. When Clinton was in office, conservatives put him under a total microscope and EVERYTHING he did was questioned... conspiracy theories about the left abounded. Now that Bush is in office, the exact same thing is happening. And it seems that in BOTH cases, the passion belongs to the party that's OUT of power. Conservatives control Congress and the White House right now, so they're less inclined to be activist than liberals are.

    I've become weary of politics, so I don't have the time nor the inclination to rebut every liberal claim of "Bush did this" or "the right wing did that" that's made here.

    Let's consider THIS question, though: What percentage of threads here are started by "liberals", versus those started by libertarians or conservatives? THIS is a statistic I'd be interested in, and one that would give some indication as to the leanings of this forum.
     
  13. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    alex -- the only thing i find worse than anonymous posting is an ambiguous attack. the "all you's guys" thing gets old and i'd have guessed you'd be above it.

    if there is something about my posting in particular with which you disagree, then feel free to use my name. no point in defending myself if i'm not even sure i'm being addressed.
     
  14. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #14
    zimv20, I think you know perfectly well what I meant with my post and to debate semantics would only waste both of our time.
     
  15. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #15
    reading between the lines, it seems you are indeed referring to me. i was unable to tell from your opening remarks.

    if you'd like to directly address to me whatever deficiencies of mine you detect, that's fine; i won't be offended and we can discuss it. but i won't play any games about it, which is how i feel about what i've quoted.
     
  16. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #16

    I think you are aware of the general pattern here. I just browsed a few threads and saw basically 95% agreement, with 5% token disagreement. You can select threads to form a non-representative sample, but the overall pattern is quite obvious.


    You think the tens of millions of moderate, traditional conservatives in the U.S. alone have vanished off the face of the earth? They are out there, and you making no attempt to understand them or even recognize them. You are pigeonholing everyone who doesn't basically agree with you into a category of wrongness. Do you really think the political spectrum really consists of 50% reasonable people (your side, of course) and 50% closed-minded idiots?

    Here you are attempting to take your own hatred and vindictiveness by displacing it onto another. It's the same semantic tactic used in saying women with short skirts invite rape, or murderers invite the death penalty. I am a liberal and I refuse to acknowledge that abuse is ever right. Abuse is simply wrong under all circumstances. There is no inviting abuse, there is only the abuser and the abused.

    Do you think G.W. Bush really gets up in the morning and says to himself, "Ahhh, another day, I wonder how many lives I can ruin today?" You are again making absolutely no attempt to understand Bush or his supporters. 40 years ago the conservatives made an attempt to understand liberal voters and it brought them political domination. You can win political battles against Republicans by bashing and thrashing, but when you do you'll be no better than they were, and in the long run you'll lose because they are more skilled at it.


    I agree with you here. I think the intelligent thing to do under these circumstances is to be friends to more people, more moderate conservatives, and win them over. Moaning and groaning and bashing and thrashing will only continue to set back your ideology. Just to let you know, it looks extremely bad from the outside (the political majority).


    With this attitude you already have.


    How do you expect to win votes when you've got your gun pointed at your potential voters?
     
  17. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #17
    I was referring to everyone in general who gets into a political discussion here at Macrumors and makes no attempt to do anything but tow the Macrumors party line with no consideration for contrary views. If you are in this group then I was indeed referring to you, but I don't mean to accuse you of doing anything you didn't do. I don't know everybody here or who posts what, just what is generally posted.
     
  18. alex_ant thread starter macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #18
    Thomas Veil, let me just say one more thing. I went to the Bush hate site of yours in your profile (http://www.cafepress.com/left) and I must say that I was simply disgusted. Liberalism is about respect, love, tolerance, virtue, brotherhood. That site is anti-liberal in the most cruel, vicious way. You are obviously a very frightened person and I pity you.

    Meanwhile, the populace that is considering voting for the candidates you support wants to know: What do you stand FOR, not against? Why should I vote for YOU? Why do you make fun of me and all of my neighbors just because of where we live? If you were to get elected, how would YOU 'get er done?' Your Bush hate site gives me no idea. All it tells me is that you hate Bush (which I pretty much expected) enough to dehumanize him.
     
  19. bousozoku Moderator emeritus

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    #19
    I'm not even sure what you're trying to gain but to display a barely cloaked (not mentioning names) anathema for others in these forums.
     
  20. Koodauw macrumors 68040

    Koodauw

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    #20
    If one does not participate in the political forums are we exempt or simply part of the problem (for not being part of the solution?)
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #21
    Just in the last few weeks I and others offered to debate the question of whether the Bush administration lied about pre-war intelligence based on specific examples, but instead what we were treated to were generalized slander of any questioning of the President. alex_ant, perhaps you should pay attention to more of what occurs here and participate yourself more often before you jump on the "liberal" posters. I for one have no problem with discussing all kinds of topics with people of all different political stripes, but when folks only post the latest conservative talking points and then run from honest arguments, you've got the problem backwards. The lack of conservative posters has more to do with the bankrupt nature of the arguments on their side of the aisle. That's a function of who is setting their agenda - the Bush administration. Sorry, no shame here; perhaps there should be more among conservative posters.

    Another thing you should consider is that the change of the rules that only allows members to post in the political forums after reaching a certain post count does not allow new conservative types to jump right into these threads. Instead we are only able to debate with folks who have long standing histories with macrumors. That has it good and bad points. It eliminates new trolls, but it also limits the pool from which to get a well rounded debate. You can hardly blame people who do contribute to these forums for that turn of events. Most of the "liberal" posters would love to see more conservative posters who back up their arguments with reason and references. As an example, I would give the fact that many posters here asked for a post limit exemption for DesertRat, a conservative poster, when the new rules came into effect. I'm sorry that 'Rat and others aren't posting much now, but that's not from a unwelcoming attitude from many "liberal" posters. I would hope that those who want to post conservative views and qualify under the post limit do so and contribute to a healthy debate. In the mean time, should we allow shallow, illogical, and unfounded posts to go by unchallenged because they represent a conservative point of view?

    alex_ant, if you have specific examples of where liberal posters have violated the rules, then it would be good to name them and folks can respond intelligently, but the generalized nature of your accusations leaves much to be desired. Suggestions for how to improve the nature of the debates here would, on the other hand, be very much appreciated.
     
  22. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #22
    Racking my brains but I don't remember the halcyon past in quite the same light as you Alex. Perhaps you've left your rose-coloured glasses on?

    Does your view extend to the religious and social issue threads? Do you think that there is reasonable debate to be had over torture? Bush not being able to open a door? GIGO as far as politics goes.

    I've been relatively happy regarding the debate in the intelligent design threads lately. Perhaps you haven't read past the Bushco threads and your waters are getting muddy.

    Either way I'm glad you and clayj etc have come back to increase the intellectual level of debate. You are staying aren't you?
     
  23. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #23
    so is that some kind of Conga line? or maybe an air line? perhaps a fine line? Hmmnm, those you usually draw, OH! you must mean toe the line!

    You've obviously got some bug somewhere that is making you itch something fierce. My suggestion would be to take it elsewhere, attacking everyone, by name or by insinuation is something that could get you banned.
     
  24. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #24

    Well-observed, and I would add to that the occasional few who fall back on the infallibility of the Bible to support their arguments. You cannot satisfactorily engage in rational discourse with those who look to Leviticus for their moral guidance.
     
  25. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #25
    Yes, exactly. I don't think any of the regular contributors to this forum are so thin-skinned that they mind being taken to task for something they said, or made to defend an argument they've made. You don't (or shouldn't) post to this board unless you are interested in serious debate. But generalizations about how people who post here conduct themselves just won't do, and not especially coming from a non-participant. This is little better behavior than trolling.

    If we lack many conservative viewpoints on these boards currently, then look to the conservatives for the reasons. We had no shortage a couple of years ago. As someone who's been here for years, I can safely say that anybody who is prepared to follow the rules of the forum will be welcomed by all.
     
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