You're free to be any Judeo-Christian Religion You Want

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mactastic, Apr 29, 2005.

  1. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #1
    Link'd

    Remember, freedom to publicly express one's religion is held in high regard by conservatives.... as long as it's their religion and not one of those evil ones.

    And let me preface this by saying that my wife (a teacher) has had to sit through school board meetings which were opened with a bow-your-head-and-let-us-pray-to-Jesus moment.

    Incidents like this expose the religious right for the crass hypocrites they are.
     
  2. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #2
    It isn't hypocrisy when you are certain that your faith is superior to all others.
     
  3. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #3
    I spend a fair amount of time giving thanks to that Big Hodad InThe Sky, myownself. Like when I pop a top, or make a clean wingshot on a quail or a claybird. Or when nothing breaks when I'm working my dumptruck in a precarious situation. Otherwise, I figure if I leave Him alone, he won't make me "boil over like Job". :D

    I've noticed a few churchophiles don't care much for my attitude.

    During one of our first manned space flights, the astronaut radioed back that he'd seen God. He wouldn't say further; he was busy. After splashdown and recovery, all the radio, newspaper and TV folks were gathered on the carrier's deck: "Tell us! Tell us, what is God like?"

    "Well," said the astronaut, "She's black."

    Dunno what a Wiccan would say as an invocation, but there's a right to be heard. Everybody has a right to be heard. Everybody else has a right to not listen. Disagreeing with or being afraid of what somebody has to say is no excuse to shout them down. (Shame the Berkley Free Speech folks never figured that out. :D)

    'Rat
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    Link please! :cool:
     
  5. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #5
    Link? Hey, that joke showed up some 40 years back. Links were either parts of a chain or in a belt of machine gun ammo! :D

    Y'know, I never did find a Baptist that thought it was funny...

    'Rat
     
  6. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #6
    i'm split about about such things because i always have been cautious about different cults ("Sekten" in german) seeking additional powers and more political influence than they should have (the "cult of ze money" aka Scientology springs to mind, or others like the Moon-cult or how is he called exactly ?)

    you know when i see a reverend moon getting crowned in a official US government building then i simply gotta freak out

    (side note: at the moment the "7th heaven" tv show is running on tv: seriously does anybody know somebody who really lieks this show ? it's the most ridiculous tv series ever invented... arghhhh i can't stand it... must cut my wrists or switch to a different channel)
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    I think probably the latter would be the wiser choice...
    :)
     
  8. StarbucksSam macrumors 65816

    StarbucksSam

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    #8
    You know, it's articles like these that make me SO happy that I've been a member of the ACLU for the last 2 years. I am actually card-carrying. I very seriously think that it is utterly ridiculous that these bimbo judges can't get their acts together. I really wish that they'd fall of the proverbial bench.

    Note that I forgot: THERE SHOULD BE NO PRAYING AT SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS AT ALL. If there was any kind of religious service at my school board's meetings, I'd sue the district for about 6.5 million dollars. Had I been at the meeting, of course. There is enough preaching in schools already without people having to feel alienated because ANY religion is holding ANY kind of service at ANY meeting. It's NOT APPROPRIATE.
     
  9. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #9
    StarbucksSam, at least remember one thng: The general makeup of the early European-derived population of the US was strongly religious. The vast majority was Judeo-Christian. Thus, certain religious traditions developed. Among these was the asking for God's favor on the endeavors of governmental meetings as well as before battles, before a Nascar race or before a football game.

    One thing about people in general: You screw around with long-time traditions and you'll have a fight on your hands. A strong amount of feeling about some tradition--and religious feelings are certainly strong, as witness such as Al Qaida--means a very emotional backlash of a fight.

    Ever read any of Robert Ruark's books? I always remember a line from the intro to "Something of Value": "When you take away a man's gods, you must replace them with something of value."

    So far, those who are adamant about a total separation of church and state, even on a vestigal level, have not offered something of value in replacement.

    I'm not particularly religious. As near as I can tell, the morning school prayer over the PA system never bothered me one way or another. I thus view that as a relatively harmless noise.

    But I've been watching all this since Madalyn Murray's lawsuit. What I can tell you is that the emotional content of the backlash against that SCOTUS decision has grown stronger with the decades. At some point, it seems to me, one should consider whether gaining the removal of final vestiges are worth the potential for physical violence that I see as an ever more likely possibility.

    Damfino,

    'Rat
     
  10. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #10
    Good Christians turn the other cheek.

    Why do so many in the US reach for their gun?
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #11
    Is an enlightened humanism not of value?

    You may not be "particularly religious", but you nominally belong to a particular religion. You may have felt very differently about it if you were Jewish, Muslim, Animist or Wiccan. Although I admire and strive to measure up to the teachings of Jesus, I find being in a church during a service and listening to the ritualized self-abasement quite an unpleasant experience.

    That sounds awfully like "appeasement". You don't eat cheese, do you?

    :rolleyes:
     
  12. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #12
    Anybody who wants to bitch about this ruling should keep in mind that at least the ACLU didn't sue to ban the prayer altogether, as StarbucksSam suggests.

    OTOH, this ruling, though it doesn't truly separate church and state, is at least a compromise most people can live with. But it opens some interesting questions. If you're going to conduct the prayer in an indiscriminate way, would you also have to be open to the kind of cults takao mentions? What about Satanists? Atheists?

    (Yes, atheists. One could argue that one type of belief system is the belief that there is no God. And how would an atheist "lead the prayer" anyway?)
     
  13. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    Let us bow our heads and
    Consider how infinitesimally small we are
    In the context of the universe
    And how we're made up of atoms and stardust
    Chemicals interacting
    Physics ruling those interactions
    Bits of electrical impulse
    At the base of our consciousness

    Let us consider
    How lucky we are
    That we won the lottery of life
    It was bound to happen somewhere

    And let us remember
    That all we have is each other
    And how we treat others and ourselves
    And that the true mark of a man or woman
    Is how others remember them
    Once they're gone
    And all that remains of them
    Is the slow process of returning
    Those borrowed atoms to the universe

    Amen
     
  14. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    skunk, enlightened humanism might be of value to you or me, but that's not necessarily the case for the deeply religious. What seems to be forgotten--or seen as being of little importance--is the viewpoint of those who do indeed see the "separation" game as taking away of their God.

    As for: Quote:
    At some point, it seems to me, one should consider whether gaining the removal of final vestiges are worth the potential for physical violence that I see as an ever more likely possibility.

    "That sounds awfully like "appeasement". You don't eat cheese, do you?"

    I think it's less appeasement than it is a certain amount of caution as to possible consequences. I don't walk up to a group of outlaw bikers and offer negative commentary about their belief system. (I note that the PETA types will throw paint on a little old lady's fur coat, but not on a biker's leather jacket. :))

    As for the "eat cheese" comment, that sounds a lot like an Internet Keyboard Commando's bravery that derives from anonymity.

    Sorta separately in all this: "Piss Christ" as art got laudatory comments. I'm waiting to see what artist has the courage (?) to do the same for "Piss Mohammed". I note Salmon Rushdie is still not wandering about much in public; I see it as fortunate that Christians in general are not given to violence. Do-gooders are noted for picking on soft targets...

    'Rat
     
  15. StarbucksSam macrumors 65816

    StarbucksSam

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    #16

    I'm sorry if I sound ignorant but the only part of that post I understood was the thing about cheese....
     
  16. mactastic thread starter macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #17
    How about 40 acres and a mule? Would that do it for you? Seriously, why should anyone have to GIVE you anything to come into compliance with the constitution? And if there's anything this particular lawsuit DOESN'T do it's seek to 'take away' someone's god. All their asking for is some proportional representation. Doesn't even have to be equal representation.

    Would you consider giving something of value to those who think the government is trying to force us to be Christian? Something to offset the value of their own set of beliefs being supplanted by Christian ones?

    No of course not. And I'm sure you've got a nice long reason full of pithy country wisdom as to why not.

    So it's ok for the Christians to threaten violence if their beliefs are threatened, but you come down with nothing but scorn and derision for PETA (among others) when they react violently because their beliefs are being trampled on?

    It's appeasement. You're talking about giving someone something so they don't hurt or kill you. Just like Neville Chamberlain did, right?

    Also, you don't see Minutemen picking on armed drug dealers, do you? I notice that they only throw unarmed migrants against the wall and humiliate them.

    You've made plenty of '101st Fighing Keyboardist' comments yourself. This is an internet chat. Are you suggesting we move to the real world and prove our bravado isn't false?

    Soft targets? Come on 'Rat, you're making my sides hurt here! Wiccans are soft targets, Christians are not. "Piss Christ" was lauded because it expressed outrage at the dominant paradigm. Please don't try and pull that 'Oh we're so oppressed' crap on me, when a few posts earlier you justified Christian prayer by stating that the overwhelming majority believes that way. You can't be both the 'vast majority' and the oppressed minority at the same time.

    :)
     
  17. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #18
    The Coffehouse Theology ad at the top of the page seems apt. :)
     
  18. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #19
    So when they start shoving their Proddy religion down my throat -- effectively taking away my God -- I can go ahead and get all militant Irish Catholic on their ass? Cool!
    I need to brush up on my car-bombing skills.
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #20
    Oh, come on, 'Rat! Don't be so touchy: it's a JOKE, not a "comment". Or will it be backhoes at twenty paces? Your place or mine? :cool: :D
    A round of Cheddar to the winner. :p
     
  20. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #21
    Just for the record, the "Judeo" part of "Judeo-Christian" in this argument is nothing more than a fig leaf. When was the last time you heard of a Jew insisting on leading a bharucha before any, let alone every, public meeting? When was the last time you heard a Christian bless a meeting with a Hebrew prayer?

    Whenever somebody talks about the "Judeo-Christian tradition," I know exactly what they mean -- even if they don't.
     
  21. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #22
    Perhaps too it's a way of excluding those Science-Christians.
     
  22. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #23
    This brings up an interesting point (to me) that I thought about posting earlier -

    With shifts in demographics in the coming decades, most notably the rise in % of latin/hispanic US citizenry, the Protestant faith will become more and more marginalized by Catholicism in particular, and by various other imported belief systems in general.

    It should be very interesting, but to topic, much like with moves to remove fillibuster procedure in the Senate (and so on) - It is all well and fine when you are the top dog, but a whole different ballgame when you find yourself in a weak position later on.

    Separation of church and state seems like a pretty good idea now, huh?

    I am with the above poster(s) who have stated that there should not be any prayer in such venues. It is not about denying a particular persons' right to pray as he/she shes fit, but to uphold the rights of all people to be free to do the same.

    You can always pray silently, after all...I am sure God can hear you regardless.

    BTW, To those who think wicca is too far out, what do you think the SE asians thought of the first Christian missionaries and their beliefs?
     
  23. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    Absolutely.

    Some gods are rather hard of hearing.

    Cross-dressing white beardies with attitude...
    :D
    Nice to have you back, BF. Where you bin?
     
  24. mactastic thread starter macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #25
    Of course the simplest (and most constitutional) solution would be to not have prayers in publicly sponsored forums to begin with, since as soon as the government deems one religion's prayer OK, they either have to let them all be OK, or they have to start making value judgments about which religion's prayers are acceptable. Christians have been let slide on this for so long they think it's a tradition that can't be violated.

    The government CANNOT be in the business of deciding which religions are OK and which aren't. It simple can't. To do so goes against everything this country was founded on.
     

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