1 in 2000 babies gender cannot be identified (so much for "ID by gender")

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by PracticalMac, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. PracticalMac macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #1
    I was surprised to see that about 1 in 2000 (.05%) babies do not have clearly defined, identifiable genitalia.
    This could result in the doctors performing the incorrect gender normalization surgery, making a male look like a girl, and vice versa.

    At least put the wrong gender on birth records.

    There is no a trend of parents refusing any surgery until later in life when the personality traits are revealed.

    The reality is these "intersex" people are very real and #45's administration demand for a binary choice by birth flies in face of this reality.
     
  2. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #2
    The problem is people like Bruce Jenner wasn't part of the .05%. I highly doubt 1% of Transgenders are.

    I have my own personal belief about gender identity, and I also realize it's just an opinion, because I'm not walking in any of their shoes. So I'm pretty neutral on this, regardless of my belief.

    That being said ...... this is a poor argument IMHO.
     
  3. StellarVixen macrumors 68000

    StellarVixen

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    #3
    Just "having an opinion" is even poorer argument.

    "I think it's just a mental disease, IMO" is not an argument at all. It's just sticking with one of the many possible explanations of gender identity disorder phenomenon that your mind can come up with, the one you at the present seem to like the most.
     
  4. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #4
    No it's not a worst argument for two reasons ....

    1) Like I mentioned, I'm not in their shoes.

    2) The burden of proof is on them. I have yet to hear or see anything rock solid, that let's me believe gender identity is from birth, and not from life's influence/emotional reaction.
     
  5. StellarVixen macrumors 68000

    StellarVixen

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    #5
    Good thing is that you can just say: "it's just a mental disease" without any burden of proof on you, right?

    That's how it usually works.
     
  6. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #6
    Actually I can't even say that, without logical reasoning behind it.

    But what I can say, is that .... it's not normal. Something or multiple things are the cause of this anomaly. And it's for sure not what the OP stated.
     
  7. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #7
    These children actually have a real problem and it should be treated as such.

    But little Johnny who has perfectly functioning genitalia but decides at at 10 that he wants to be a she because of who knows why is actually hurting the .05% of those with a real problem.
     
  8. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #8
    Why? What does it matter to you whether they are part of the .05 or not?
     
  9. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    Honestly, why is this an issue? Intersex is a real (and fairly common) thing, as is a spectrum of Gender Idenification for people. It is important to them, but it doesn't matter a bit to me as a straight male. I have Trump, taxes, Climate Change, Economy (etc) to worry about. Empower people - whatever their sexuality, they're more than that. Realize that.
     
  10. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #10
    Is there a hormone test or something related that might identify physical or mental gender in an infant? I’m uneducated on this and don’t know if they know exactly what shapes gender identity in the brain. Clearly that seems not to be based on just physicality.
     
  11. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #11
    You can do a DNA test and determine if they are XX or XY.
     
  12. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #12
    Ok, does that always correspond to actual physical and mental perception of the individual? I believe there are examples where a penis is not formed properly and doctors decided to make a girl.
     
  13. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #13
    I'm not talking about mental perception, I'm talking about biology and ultimately how the individual is likely to develop given which hormones his body is going to ultimately produce. You can also do ultrasound/radiography to determine if the person has internal female sex organs.
     
  14. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #14
    I guess what I’m asking is do they know why some people identify with the opposite sex, other than what they were born with? Is there a biological, mental, or a combination of factors (I would assume). This would be separate from where doctors made a choice for the case of ambiguous genitalia.
     
  15. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #15
    Environmental and psychological would be my best guess.
     
  16. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #16
    I do believe in some people who have conflicted feelings, there might be an element of experimentation, but ultimately they are who they are. I don’t believe there is free choice that is being made, an idea promoted in conservative circles. As with all things human, I believe we have limited choice, if any.
     
  17. tshrimp macrumors 6502

    tshrimp

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    #17
    Awesome. Another gender thread. As I posted in the other thread a few days ago..per science Ori was male. See other thread for the links.

    "The condition caused Ori to have both XX chromosomes and XY chromosomes".
    Basic summary from the scientific links I provided in the other thread, if a Y chromosome exists then it is a biological male.

    The left wants to make this more complicated than it is. Trying to dictate so much because of a .05% occurrence.

    Not sure why we started another thread instead of just continuing that one.
     
  18. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #18
    From a scientific/medical perspective, I don’t understand why people born intersex/with genetic abnormalities/physical deformities are automatically grouped into the transgender community when that simply just isn’t the case.

    People being born intersex should not be some justification for transgender rights and societal acceptance. I believe transgender people (those born XX or XY that ID with the opposite gender) deserve acceptance and rights as there is biological evidence pointing towards its legitimacy as something that’s not a “mental disorder”, however it should be done so on its own merits- not by distorting science and medical knowledge.
     
  19. Number-Six macrumors 6502

    Number-Six

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    #19
    Why have rights based on gender/sex at all in the first place?

    From one of the articles posted in the other thread:

    Isn't that essentially the problem? Why break down these rights by gender (or race for that matter, or any other label), it should just be rights of the people, period (not even human rights, I would hate triggering some SJWs).
     
  20. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #20
    I use this as example of how sex is not binary.
    There is physical expression of sexual variants, not just character traits / sexual orientation.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 1, 2018 ---
    That there are other ranges in physical and emotional identifications of sex?

    #45 is saying there are only 2, but Ori is example of an in between.
    I did not apply this to Bruce Jenner.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 1, 2018 ---

    Because women around the world are still considered property (baby factories).
    Even Western countries have not entirely eliminated that "property" ID.
     
  21. duffman9000 macrumors 68000

    duffman9000

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    #21
    I recall there is a Bill Nye episode on gender.
     
  22. RootBeerMan macrumors 65816

    RootBeerMan

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    #22
    He does have a couple. At least one from back in the 90's that is more akin to elementary school science than what we know now.

     
  23. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #23
    I believe there are only two genders, which is in relation to our physical biology. Anything else is an anomaly and extreme minority. What natural purpose would any other gender have?
     
  24. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #24
    I totally agree, and of course any in between that is unable to reproduce is a dead end.

    But it is well known that mutations exist in animals where it cannot reproduce.
    So, if a human cannot reproduce because of mutations that results in missing organs, what to call them?
     
  25. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #25
    It's not about what to call them. It's about this being unstructured and not common enough to consider them as a new gender. I have no issues with considering them intersex, bi-gender, or etc, (not familiar with all the names). But many act like it's a gender entity of it's own rather than just a variation of both sexes, that's what I disagree with 100%.
     

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57 October 31, 2018