100 years ago in Sarajevo

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sydde, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    Saturday is the Centennial of that little argument between Archduke Ferdinand and a little guy named Princip, that arguably led to two massive international conflicts and facilitated the rise of the USSR.

    The accounts of the incident are bizarre, to the point of being Keystone-Kops-Komikal. It barely even happened. Yet, how important was it? It seems like Europe was a powderkeg, on the verge of bursting into war at the drop of a hat. All Gavrilo Princip did was happen to be the guy who fired the shot, what followed may have been inevitable anyroad, one way or another.

    So, what have we learned since then? Europe looks fairly stable these days, so we will probably not have any significant new wars there. But the rest of the world? Maybe not so much?

    One of the biggest complaints at the time was that the Great War was fought on behalf of the bankers (this kind of conveys on to the later anti-semitism in the sequel). Today, we have an equivalent in the form of massive multinational corporations that basically run everything – and, I suppose, in the interest of profitability, seek to minimize fighting. As long as most of us are willing to tolerate their existence, I guess the world will remain at relative peace.

    Anyone have any thoughts or insights on this subject?
     
  2. chown33 macrumors 604

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  3. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    Ain't that the truth!

    Talk about a shot (or shots in this case) heard 'round the world.
     
  4. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    You left out the weird twist right before that: the driver took a wrong turn, stopped, jammed the car in reverse, but stalled the engine, which gave Princip the chance to take an easy shot.
     
  5. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    Don't forget he got a grenade thrown at him earlier that same day.
     
  6. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    By a guy who then tried to drown himself in the river, which turned out to be 5 inches deep.
     
  7. chown33 macrumors 604

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  8. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    Thank goodness the nation's supply of corn held out...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    I'm just waiting for the Republicans to convene a Congressional hearing to determine if this was President Obama's fault.;)
     
  10. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    Its crazy to think its only just over ten years ago that the city was under seige from random sniper fire and mortar attacks.

    I would love to go to sarajevo.
     
  11. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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  12. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    It's a cool if weird place. I was there 9 years ago during Ramadan. Walked over the bridge, (different bridge, same location) where Ferdinand was killed. Couldn't walk too far into the hills as some areas were heavily mined by the Serbs. One of the most achingly bizarre things about Sarajevo were the Sarajevo Roses.

    [​IMG]

    Each "rose" is the site where someone was assassinated by a Serbian sniper.


    OT, Princip and his cronies were horribly dissatisfied with the status quo of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Kaiser Wilhelm had a massive chip on his shoulder and Tsar Nicholas was ineffectual at best. Billy and Nick's cousin King George of England (all three were grandsons of Queen Victoria, their resemblance to one another is striking) wasn't much of a leader either. WWI was as much about the end of the age of Empire and inherited political rulers as it was about ethnic independence.

    Ironically, after WWI, Germany's borders were mostly inline with where ethnic Germans lived, it was the social upheaval in Russia and the former Austro-Hungarian Empire that caused many people to flee towards the more permissive Germany. Many were ethnically German but many were not. This social dissonance is thought to largely have contributed to the rise of the Nazi party.

    I think the reason the ME is having so many problems today is that their borders do not reflect ethnicities. After WWII, most of Europe's borders contained a single ethnicity. There are notably exceptions of course, Tyrol being one of them. The Balkans were the most obvious example and Tito's solution was seen as the best defense against Italy or a possibly re-emergence of some sort of Austro-Hungarian behemoth.

    Union based on fear is rarely a good thing...
     
  13. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    How did you get there, it seems a right PITA to fly to.
     
  14. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    I took a bus from Zagreb, Croatia. Although it was a long trip, the countryside was beautiful and the amount of damage from the war was astonishing. entire villages were destroyed, nothing but bombed wrecks. When I left, I took the bus to Dubrovnik via Mostar. Coming over that last ridge and seeing the sparkling blue Adriatic was memorable, almost like waking from a bad dream.
     
  15. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    Hmmm.... I wonder how easy it is to rent a car and drive it...... Ive taken the train from budapest to belgrade and then to zagreb and it was annoying I couldn't stop and take photos
     
  16. TheAppleFairy macrumors 68020

    TheAppleFairy

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    I am sure if we came to that conclusion, Obama would have a press conference and explain why it's really Bush's' fault.
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    Croatia is in the EU so it should be straightforward ;).
     
  18. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    I was thinking about going the other way though, from sofia, which means bulgaria, through serbia and into bosnia.

    Also bosnia isn't in the EU (is it?) so I don't know if you could rent a car in the EU and drive it out of the EU.
     
  19. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    As I was reading another article about this at NPR today, it had me thinking.

    A few years ago, a band came on the scene with the same name as the archduke: Franz Ferdinand. So far, they had been one hit wonders, as only their song 'Take Me Out' has had any real airplay (at least in my area). But that had me looking at the lyrics of the song as well.

    I don't know about anyone else here, but this screams of the shot heard around the world. This sounds like the viewpoints of the shooter, the archduke, and his wife. Rather dark and foreboding for a lively song.

    BL.
     
  20. Sydde thread starter macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    The people of Serbia have unveiled a statue honoring Gavrilo Princip. I guess they think he was a hero, though his action led to the death of one quarter of all Serbs (half of its men) and the country being wrapped up into a regional amalgam (lost its sovereignty for the quarters of a century).
     
  21. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    Nothing surprises me about Serbia, they celebrate, the battle of Kosovo.
    Battle of Kosovo, Kosovo also spelled Kossovo, (June 28 [June 15, Old Style], 1389), battle fought at Kosovo Polje (“Field of the Blackbirds”; now in Kosovo) between the armies of the Serbian prince Lazar and the Turkish forces of the Ottoman sultan Murad I (reigned 1360–89).
    The battle ended in a Turkish victory, the collapse of Serbia, and the complete encirclement of the crumbling Byzantine Empire by Turkish armies.

    Murad captured many fortified places near Constantinople (now Istanbul) and used internal troubles in Byzantium and the Slavic states to extend Turkish conquests in the Balkan peninsula. Moving into Serbia, he marched as far as Kosovo, where he met Lazar’s army.

    At first, victory appeared to be on the side of the Serbs when the sultan was killed by a Serbian noble, Miloš Obilić, who made his way into the Turkish camp on the pretext of being a deserter and forced his way into the sultan’s tent and stabbed him with a poisoned dagger. The confusion that followed was quickly quelled by Bayezid, Murad’s son, who succeeded in surrounding the Serbs and inflicting a crushing defeat on their army. Lazar was taken prisoner and executed; the Serbs were forced to pay tribute to the Turks and promised to do military service in the sultan’s army.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/322736/Battle-of-Kosovo
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    When you have no successes to celebrate, I guess you have to make do with disasters.
     
  23. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    Serbs tend to be quite a nationalistic people, I think their celebration of "disasters" is more of a celebration of defiance in the face of adversity.

    They're amazingly hospitable though, although most of the ones I met in Beograd had a bone to pick with americans..... So maybe lay off visiting for a few years if you're from the states
     
  24. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    During the war, I worked at a logistics company and the bookkeeper had been born in Austria to an Austrian mother and a Serbian father. The mother was a nurse during WWII and the father was a captain in the Serbian army. They moved to the US when my coworker was 11.

    Her Serbian Orthodox church purchased medical supplies to be sent via ocean container to Serbia. I was in charge of ensuring that it was picked up from the ocean terminal in Italy and delivered to its destination. Obviously, getting anything delivered during wartime is difficult but since the container had to transit through Hungary, itself a bureaucratic nightmare at the time and then be held up at the border with the Serbian border guards demanding baksheesh, it was the worst three weeks of my life.

    To say they are nationalistic is understating it by a large degree.
     
  25. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    During the recent flooding a serbian red cross member was demanding ID's from people who had lost everything before giving them any aid, and was found to be hiding food. Your story about the serbian guards doesn't really surprise me, I guess its a hangover from their previous ways of doing things.

    In the end the red cross guy got kicked out and the public took over what he was doing :D

    Apparently he'd done the same thing during the war.

    http://revolution-news.com/resident...cue-evict-red-cross-finally-help-gets-needed/
     

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