14 Charts that prove the U.S. Is Screwed

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. fivepoint, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2011

    fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
    Why We're Screwed (if we don't adapt quickly)
    For the sake of this discussion, let's try to avoid actually talking about who is to blame or which political party is to blame, or which ideology is to blame... and just talk about the problem we're in, how bad it is, and what needs to be done to fix it. What sacrifices need to be made, and how quickly we need to make them. There's no more denying there's a problem. The only issue now is what the solution looks like.

    Please avoid the blame game. Stay on topic so we can have a meaningful discussion about actual practical solutions.

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    While I disagree with the article's author when he says we don't spend too much on Education and Defense... he's 100% right about the MAIN problem.

     
  2. flopticalcube macrumors G4

    flopticalcube

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    #2
    Try telling the boomers that their ss contributions weren't for them but for their now deceased parents to live off of and that there is nothing left for them. Not a vote winner. Healthcare reform is the only way. Other nations achieve much better results in both healthcare and education with less money. Unfortunately there is also a lot of debt to be paid back which will be expensive when rates rise. More pain to come. Raise taxes and cut spending.
     
  3. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #3
    Social Security is fully funded to 2037, will run a surplus at that point and is separate from the budget. The ACA is fully designed to lower health care costs and lower the deficit, something which the right consistently ignores.

    If the US were screwed, you wouldn't have countries queuing up to lend you money. Stop cutting taxes on the wealthy and pursuing unfunded wars for a start.
     
  4. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #4
    According to data on your first chart I'd say that corporate income tax revenues need to increase dramatically. Corporate income taxes only represent 9%(191 billion) of revenue yet individual income tax represents 41% (899 billion). Combine that with all the bailouts the government handed out to the banks and some corporations and I'm guessing the net rate might be close to 0%.

    I'm not saying individual taxpayers won't have to sacrifice in order to solve the problem, but I'm not sure why there are those that argue that no matter how many tax breaks corporations get or even government bailouts---that's its always the individual who has to pay.

    It's a policy based on greed straight from the richest people and companies in this country.
     
  5. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #5
    I have heard that much of the hemorrhage could be addressed with a simple 0.5% tax on market trades, while also affording a little stability to the markets. After that, a nice little national property tax might well make up the difference if structured properly
     
  6. fivepoint, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011

    fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #6
    Two things... first, higher taxes does not = higher government 'revenue.'

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    Second off, corporate taxes are actually just taxes on consumers of their products. Companies simply pass these taxes along to their customers in the form of increased cost in the good or service they sell. There's no such thing as a corporate tax... it's just a disguised sales tax on consumers.



    The biggest problem I see with SS is that it's an unsustainable Ponzi Scheme which requires constant growth in population in order to sustain costs incurred by smaller and smaller groups of people.

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  7. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #7

    This is why you are wrong:


    See, also: Social Security a Ponzi scheme? No way.
     
  8. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #8
    All businesses, corporations included, are taxed more or less at the same rates as individuals.

    The reason that businesses don't pay as much in taxes (in terms of absolute dollars, not in terms of tax rate) is because it is advantageous to businesses to pay out most, if not all, of their income to employees (in the form of bonuses) or shareholders (in the form of dividends) in order to pass that tax burden along to the individuals. The government gets their cut either way.

    It's not as easy for publicly traded corporations to do this, since it affects stock prices, but they can make it easy by paying out dividends to shareholders or preferred stock to employees. It still doesn't affect the government's revenue stream, since the individuals are taxed for that income just the same.
     
  9. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #9
    Whether or not you can find one or two irrelevant differences (like private 'investing' vs. public 'taxing') between SS and a traditional Ponzi scheme is meaningless. It's not really an arguable point... like all Ponzi schemes, Social Security does not make money, it simply takes money from younger taxpayers to pay benefits to older (now retired) taxpayers. In order for this (and all) Ponzi scheme to stay afloat, there must be more and more payers or more income from each individual payer to ensure the pyramid stays intact. Unfortunately, due to reality, there are fewer young workers relative to the number of retirees to keep the system afloat. Unless a miracle occurs, Social Security will eventually collapse just like any Ponzi Scheme.

    At any rate, we're off topic. Back to the OP.
     
  10. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #10

    Sorry, you're just compounding fallacy upon fallacy. This is plainly incorrect. Your first post has a graph showing Social Security is unfunded, this is clearly not true as I have already provided evidence for. Your attempt to:

    ...means little when you're posting misleading information in the first place in order to make a scare-mongering argument about deficit reduction.

    Is the US screwed? No. I've already told you why.

    As for your misleading graph about taxes and revenue, note that they dropped from 9.4% to 6.7% over a 30 year period, a decline of almost one third.
     
  11. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #11
    Is there a reason those charts in the opening post have to be so large?
     
  12. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

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  13. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #13
    It makes it look like they mean something. Bigger and brighter means more important and more relevant. Having those big, bright graphics in your face helps you ignore the myriad other factors, both prominent and subtle, in the larger picture.
     
  14. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #14
    Which of my 'fallacies' about SS do you specifically deny? None I'm guessing.

    Also, it's not my fault that you don't understand what 'unfunded liabilities' are. It doesn't even compete with your point about SS being 'ok' for another 15 years. Unfunded liablities are calculated traditionally on a 75 year basis... to determine the long-term viability of various government programs. So, as the chart clearly states that in the next 75 years (~ the life of your children) the system will be short 7.9 Trillion dollars. Meaning, for the same payouts to continue, we'll have to come up with that amount of money to cover the difference. This difference is caused by a lessening number of payers and an increasing number of receivers... as I mentioned earlier when pointing out accurately how SS is a ponzi scheme.
     
  15. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #15
    Ladies and gentlemen, our course is now clear, grim and arduous though it may be. For the sake of our children and our children's children, we must immediately kill all chart-makers.
     
  16. mcrain, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011

    mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #16
    Higher taxes result in more revenue and increases in economic activity and job creation.

    I say we raise taxes, make them more progressive and at the same time, look at government spending and make reasonable and smart decisions about what and where to cut. Step one is to make sure everyone at that table can pass the one question test. "Where was the President born." Anyone who fails that test should be fired, but at a minimum, barred from participation in any meaningful discussions.

    (edit) Not to get into blame, but I find it amusing that it's only now that we have a Democrat in office that Republicans like Fivepoint want to make tough choices, and the solutions they come up with are just more of the same policies from the last administration. (Cut taxes, cut government, cut social programs).
     
  17. andrewsd macrumors 6502

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  18. SuperCachetes macrumors 6502a

    SuperCachetes

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    #18
    It's so the growing number of aging Social Security benificiaries can read them. :D
     
  19. Maui macrumors 6502a

    Maui

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    #19
    The solutions are clear: borrow trillions so we can cut taxes on the rich and invade a few more countries.
     
  20. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #20
    Personally, I think this thread is screwed unless it gets enough posts to start a new page so that the chart load can be skipped.
     
  21. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #21
    I agree.
     
  22. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #22
    Me too.
     
  23. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #23
    I don't think even that will save it.
     
  24. neko girl macrumors 6502a

    neko girl

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  25. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #25
    I am exited. :p

    Enough with 5Ps navel gazing, or lint collecting, or whatever??
     

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