2 abortion providers charged with murder in Md.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MacNut, Dec 31, 2011.

  1. MacNut, Dec 31, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2011

    MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #1
    This is an interesting case about how late is too late to abort a fetus.
    At 36 weeks a fetus is considered full term.
    http://news.yahoo.com/2-abortion-providers-charged-murder-md-230809522.html
     
  2. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    #2
    Interesting precedents that can potentially be set in this case.

    Admittedly I've always been pro-choice..but damn...36 weeks? My kids were born at 37 weeks.
     
  3. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #3
    Interesting stuff, 36 weeks is too long in my opinion. I'm pro-choice but surely the "choice" can be made long before 36 weeks. If there are medical reasons ten surely inducing early labor or emergency c-section would be better.

    Although I think there probably should be some ramifications, I find the murder charge interesting and maybe over the top. (Had no idea you could murder a foetus in the US, here you can only murder a "reasonable person in being" which the courts have taken to mean not a foetus no matter how well developed).
     
  4. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #4
    I have to agree. I was going to initially say that the thread title is misleading, but the article has it right. This isn't abortion; this would be murder due to the viability of the fetus.

    I'm pro choice as well, but this is hard for me to take as my son was born exactly at 36 weeks, and we barely made it to that (emergency cerclage at 17 weeks).

    To be honest, after losing 7 (miscarriages at various stages), then having my son, I'm at odds with things like this happening, as well as the other side of the spectrum (Duggars, Octomom, etc.; those who play the pregnancy game like it's a slot machine that pays off).

    I honestly don't know what to say, so I'll let the smileys say it for me:

    :eek: :confused: :(

    BL.
     
  5. swingerofbirch macrumors 68030

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    #5
    I wonder if they truly felt they were doing the best thing, if they felt it was wrong, or they felt it was somewhere in between. As a male, I will never have that choice to make, but in a more realistic hypothetical, I could not assist in an abortion unless the abortion were lifesaving to the mother. I truly do hope the number of abortions continues to decrease (it has since 1980); although, I've never been able to come to say I believe in criminalizing abortion. It does seem so horrible not be able to say something with more clarity on the issue, especially as I believe myself to be a progressive, and as I believe in progressivism (to be clear, I don't consider abortion a progressive solution). I can loudly and clearly declare I am against genital mutilation of both boys and girls (and have been vocal about that ever since I came to understand the phenomenon), but when it comes to a matter of life and death, I'm not sure why it's so much harder—it should be easier to make a clarion call. I grew up being told things like it's better for a mother to abort than to raise a child when doesn't want to or can't afford to. But when I think on those statements now they sound haunting and remind me of the Nazi posters that offered sensible explanations of why retarded children (fully born) should be killed to save money (and even some psychiatrists in the US wanted to follow Germany's lead). I then tend to rationalize my non-stance on the criminalization of abortion by postulating that the number of abortions might not decrease even if it were made illegal and that with it being legal, it is decreasing steadily. I am also strongly opposed to the death penalty. I just don't like the idea that we accept ending others' lives with such pre-meditation. (It is one of my qualms with Obama--he accepts death as a solution quite readily, and in 2008 even said he disagreed with the Supreme Court when it ruled sex offenders could not be put to death for sex offenses alone.) Obama aside, it seems there are more people on my political side of the political aisle opposed to the death penalty than on the conservative side. And just the opposite when it comes to abortion rights. I really can't make sense of that or the issues in general. I wonder sometimes how the idea of abortion first came to humans. I'm not sure the idea would ever have occurred to me naturally if I had never been told about it. I would like there to be no abortions in the world. I probably sound a bit childish making a wish like that. And there would be repercussions in population size. I guess something everyone can then agree on is ending unwanted conceptions is a good goal.
     
  6. MacNut thread starter macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #6
    The other part of the story is that they found 35 late term fetuses in a freezer.
     
  7. Abyssgh0st macrumors 68000

    Abyssgh0st

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    #7
    I am a die-hard pro-choicer, but I have to say that I agree with the posters above. If it took 36 weeks to make the decision, they could have probably had an early C-section and never had to deal with the baby, without waiting any more. Honestly, I'm surprised the providers were not leery of performing them so late term. Talk about stretching boundaries. With some of the injuries that their clients sustained, I'm surprised they stayed in business.
     
  8. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #8
    36 weeks seems extremely late for an abortion.
     
  9. Heilage macrumors 68030

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    #9
    I'm also vehemently pro-choice, but this is not even within the same general area. Even though many anti-abortion people will use this as a "look at what abortion is" example, and claim that we like this kind of thing, it would be a lie.

    How could these doctors even contemplate a 36-week abortion? From a medical standpoint, wouldn't it violate the hypocratic oath?
     
  10. Phil A. Moderator

    Phil A.

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    #10
    At 36 weeks, it isn't abortion and I think the Authorities have it absolutely right in charging these doctors with murder
     
  11. lewis82 macrumors 68000

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    #11
    Why keep 35 foetuses in a freezer? I just can't understand why they haven't cremated them.
     
  12. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

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    #12
    They needed a lime pit in the basement. (I kid, I kid ..... ouch, stop that!!)

    Up to 36 weeks does sound criminal, but were the Mothers honest about the stage of their pregnancy? Unless they did an ultrasound, or similar test before hand, they might have been surprised at the result.
     
  13. lewis82 macrumors 68000

    lewis82

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    #13
    Early abortions are made with a kind of suction device, which I don't believe works with 36 week foetuses :p
     
  14. renewed macrumors 68040

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    #14
    Sad to hear about the poor children who were killed but glad to see that since it happened these "doctors" have been arrested and rightfully charged with murder. I'm sure it's a "money talks" case.

    I would also be interested to see if the mothers were charged with some sort of conspiracy to murder as well, as they should be.

    Also on the note of the fetuses in the freezer, I am sure they were saving them to sell to some sort of research facility.
     
  15. Schtumple macrumors 601

    Schtumple

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    #15
    I'm wondering this too, could be corruption (on the doctors behalf) and deceit (on the mothers behalf). Very sad state of affairs, I'm pro choice but this is just wrong, 36 is WAY too late to have left it, if your circumstances aren't fit for raising a child, you deal with that IMMEDIATELY, not leaving it for 8-9 months...
     
  16. stickybuns macrumors 6502

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    #16
    Along with other catastrophic conditions, extreme hydrocephalus can sometimes not be identified until very late in pregnancy. Because a normal vaginal delivery poses too great a risk to the mother, she is faced with choosing between a cesarean birth of a child with conditions "incompatible with life" or ending the pregnancy and saying goodbye to her child on her own terms.

    I haven't been in the position of giving birth to a child whom I know will die within minutes/hours/days of leaving my body, so I hesitate to condemn women who have been in such a position by accusing them of doing it for convenience sake.
     
  17. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Where is this in the article?
     
  18. MacNut thread starter macrumors Core

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    #18
    If there were that many problems with the baby you would go to a doctor and not have a late term abortion.
     
  19. thatoneguy82 macrumors 68000

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    #19
    I'm extremely pro-choice. It's a woman's body and she should decide what she wants with it. BUT, if the baby is endangering her health and terminating the pregnancy late is the only option then she has no choice. Some would rather save their lives than save their unborn baby. They always believe they can "make" another, but they value their own life more. Being in medical field, taking the Hippocratic Oath - First Do No Harm, we have to do as patient asks. Especially if what they ask would say their lives. This is what it means to be a physician.

    But, yes, I agree. That's extremely late. I don't believe a D&C is even possible to extract the baby since it's grown so large. It may have to be surgically removed. But, this is wholly dependent on baby size and on a case by case basis.
     
  20. MacNut thread starter macrumors Core

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    #20
    If you are that far in the pregnancy and there is a major problem don't you go to the hospital have have the pregnancy induced not aborted?
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

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    #21
    Certainly much more usual.
     
  22. 184550 Guest

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    #22
    I completely agree.

    I'll be interested in seeing how this turns out.
     
  23. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    #23
    I think what everyone is overlooking is the word 'viability'. Just because a pregnancy was terminated at 36 weeks doesn't mean the fetus was viable outside the womb. There could have been any number of reasons why an abortion was decided to be the best option.

    Simply from the the article, it seems as though someone is playing politics here.
     
  24. salacious macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    at 36 weeks its a baby and that would mean they killed a baby, they would have to have forced her to give birth or c-sectioned her, in this case the baby should have been given to social services, this story seems not to be too true to me, even the media wouldnt describe a fetus being aborted at 36 weeks, because thats 9 months, and almost all babys with no health problems would survive..
     
  25. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

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    #25
    And that could be the reason for keeping tiny cadavers in the freezer.
     

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