2011 — Arguments: the single highest known cause of homicide

citizenzen

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Original poster
Mar 22, 2010
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I was looking at the FBI Expanded Homicide Data Table 11 and a few things stood out to me.

There was a category that easily outpaced gang-related homicides that I believe is a key to the problem in the U.S. and guns: arguments.

In 2011, over 3 times more people were shot and killed in an argument (1,948) than are shot and killed in gang violence (619).

Argument killings outpaced killings that occurred during felonies (1,271) which included the categories of rape, robbery, burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, arson, prostitution, sex offenses, narcotics, gambling and more.

Argument killings were the single highest known cause of homicide.

And this is one reason why I believe that more guns = more homicide, because people in the heat of emotion and rage cannot control their impulse to strike out. And when they have a gun, their ability to strike with lethal force is enhanced.

We can't control whether people get into arguments. We can influence—as demonstrated by other countries—the weapon they reach for in the heat of one.
 
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G51989

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It is true that arguments do cause LOTS of problems.

But you can't really ban arguments.

Just as you can't really ban handguns, or shotguns, nor do I think we should.

I am all for Gun Control, but I don't know of any proposed law that would stop some married couple during an argument to shoot themselves.

And yes, having a gun in a house does increase the chance of someone getting killed in an argument. Or a kid playing with them if they have parents that don't keep them locked up and aren't responsible.

However, if someone broke into my home at night, having a shotgun in the bedroom vastly increases my chances of not being injured or killed.
 

G51989

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Source please.
Im not sourcing it, because it is my personal opinion.

Weather or not it happens all over the country is not something I know.

Here is what I do know, if someone breaks in a window, breaks down a door at 3AM, and doesn't leave when I yell at them.

I am going to shoot them in the face.

I'll take my own safety over a thief.

What would you do? Ask nicely for them to leave?
 

jkcerda

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Jun 10, 2013
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Im not sourcing it, because it is my personal opinion.

Weather or not it happens all over the country is not something I know.

Here is what I do know, if someone breaks in a window, breaks down a door at 3AM, and doesn't leave when I yell at them.

I am going to shoot them in the face.

I'll take my own safety over a thief.

What would you do? Ask nicely for them to leave?
Unarmed citizens could

Pray
Ask the criminal to leaVe
Be a good victim
Declare home a gun/crime free zone
Take comfort in statistics that show not all home invasions are bad
Plenty of other things they can do.
their home/their choice. With firearm possession increasing the chance of murder/suicide/violence I fully support them making the best decision that suits them.
I would say the odds of being the victim of a crime are rather small to begin with.

Edit. Just woke up in San Diego. Family is not with me, but my Winchester 1300 is.
 

LIVEFRMNYC

macrumors 604
Oct 27, 2009
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It is true that arguments do cause LOTS of problems.

But you can't really ban arguments.

Just as you can't really ban handguns, or shotguns, nor do I think we should.

I am all for Gun Control, but I don't know of any proposed law that would stop some married couple during an argument to shoot themselves.

And yes, having a gun in a house does increase the chance of someone getting killed in an argument. Or a kid playing with them if they have parents that don't keep them locked up and aren't responsible.

However, if someone broke into my home at night, having a shotgun in the bedroom vastly increases my chances of not being injured or killed.
I think the OP's point is dead on when talking about carrying in public.

Here in NY. I see fights on a regular basis. Most fights end up being a comedy show, some get serious and bloody. I can't imagine if NY let everyone get an open carry or concealed carry permit, things would turn into chaos fast.

In less populated and more rural places, I support carrying. But for large cities I don't. I also fully support having a weapon in home, although it should require at least a mandatory annual safety training class.
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
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Unarmed citizens could

Pray
Ask the criminal to leaVe
Be a good victim
Declare home a gun/crime free zone
Take comfort in statistics that show not all home invasions are bad
Plenty of other things they can do.
their home/their choice. With firearm possession increasing the chance of murder/suicide/violence I fully support them making the best decision that suits them.
I would say the odds of being the victim of a crime are rather small to begin with.
I don't live in fear or anything, I have a very nice security system at both my homes that automatically dial the police, very nice locks, doors and windows.

I don't live in fear of that happening.

But I do like to keep a 12 gauge in the bedroom closet, just in case that ever were to happen.

Lets say someone breaks in, the police aren't there yet.

What am I supposed to do? Get killed?
 

Bug-Creator

macrumors 6502a
May 30, 2011
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However, if someone broke into my home at night, having a shotgun in the bedroom vastly increases my chances of not being injured or killed.
Chances are the burglar allready was in other peoples houses.
Chances are he stole some guns if those owners had similar thoughts than yours.
Chances are he carries that gun with him when entering your house.
Chances are he is better prepared for an armed houseowner than you are for an armed burglar.
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
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NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
Here in NY. I see fights on a regular basis. Most fights end up being a comedy show, some get serious and bloody. I can't imagine if NY let everyone get an open carry or concealed carry permit, things would turn into chaos fast.
Yes, I live part time in NYC myself. I think everyone open carrying would be a disaster waiting to happen. Same with lots of people carrying concealed.

I don't carry anymore, I've lived in some REALLY shady areas in my life. I carried then but not anymore.

I also fully support having a weapon in home, although it should require at least a mandatory annual safety training class.
Yeah, I would be ok with that.

I have a decent number of histrionic rifles and muskets, wanna go carry them into a Chiplote ;)

FREEDOM!

And yeah, I have weapons in my homes for home defense if something ever does happen, I have not carried in public for a LONG LONG time.

----------

Chances are the burglar allready was in other peoples houses.
Chances are he stole some guns if those owners had similar thoughts than yours.
Chances are he carries that gun with him when entering your house.
Chances are he is better prepared for an armed houseowner than you are for an armed burglar.
So rather than be prepared.... or at least try to do something?

just get shot?

Similar thoughts to mine?

Besides the 12 gauge I keep in the bedroom closet in its own safe that I can rapidly open, all of my guns are locked in a safe that can't be easily opened or removed. The damn thing weighs about 1200 pounds and is bolted to the floor.
 

jkcerda

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Jun 10, 2013
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Chances are the burglar allready was in other peoples houses.
Chances are he stole some guns if those owners had similar thoughts than yours.
Chances are he carries that gun with him when entering your house.
Chances are he is better prepared for an armed houseowner than you are for an armed burglar.
Cool. Hand over your valuables /wife/kids & let the guy do as he pleases with them:rolleyes:

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You don't need to go to that extreme.

There are methods of preparation, effort, protection and defense that don't involve firearms.
Agreed. Pick the one that suits your family. Having a CHOICE is great. Don't like guns? Well simply don't buy one. Not ALL criminals are armed anyways
 

Bug-Creator

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*shrug*

Was just pointing out that the boat to sane restrictions on guns has been long gone in the US...

Just to many guns in the hands of questional people, might as well go back to the wild west.
 

jkcerda

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Jun 10, 2013
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Yes, I live part time in NYC myself. I think everyone open carrying would be a disaster waiting to happen. Same with lots of people carrying concealed.

I don't carry anymore, I've lived in some REALLY shady areas in my life. I carried then but not anymore.



Yeah, I would be ok with that.

I have a decent number of histrionic rifles and muskets, wanna go carry them into a Chiplote ;)

FREEDOM!

And yeah, I have weapons in my homes for home defense if something ever does happen, I have not carried in public for a LONG LONG time.

----------



So rather than be prepared.... or at least try to do something?

just get shot?

Similar thoughts to mine?

Besides the 12 gauge I keep in the bedroom closet in its own safe that I can rapidly open, all of my guns are locked in a safe that can't be easily opened or removed. The damn thing weighs about 1200 pounds and is bolted to the floor.
Mine sits next to the bed 24/7. Kids/wife know how to use it although the wife has never fired it

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*shrug*

Was just pointing out that the boat to sane restrictions on guns has been long gone in the US...

Just to many guns in the hands of questional people, might as well go back to the wild west.
The definition of "sane" varies greatly. If YOU don't like guns YOU DON'T have to buy them, simple as that.
 

G51989

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Feb 25, 2012
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You don't need to go to that extreme.

There are methods of preparation, protection and defense that don't involve firearms.
Such as? I already have security systems that dial the police in both my more Rural and City homes. Good locks and doors, all that fun stuff.

But

Lets say, someone has busted into your house, with a knife, maybe a gun, or whatever.

Are going to take your chances that police may not show up in time? Or that this intruder might have other ideas besides robbing you and hurting you or your family?

Do you wait for the police? Who might not make it in time? ( At my main house, they won't for sure ), or do you pick up that weapon and do something about it?

That shotgun I keep upstairs, is the last resort, not the first one.

----------

*shrug*

Was just pointing out that the boat to sane restrictions on guns has been long gone in the US...

Just to many guns in the hands of questional people, might as well go back to the wild west.
I 100% support sane gun laws in the US of A.

Such as reregistration and a universal background check, and safety classes.
 

Bug-Creator

macrumors 6502a
May 30, 2011
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The definition of "sane" varies greatly. If YOU don't like guns YOU DON'T have to buy them, simple as that.

Guess what, it's not about wether I can get a gun or not, but wether the crazy neighbour or the guy entering my house could get one easily :eek:
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
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Guess what, it's not about wether I can get a gun or not, but wether the crazy neighbour or the guy entering my house could get one easily :eek:
Ok, if he has one easily.

Shouldn't I be able to have my shotgun to at least TRY to defend myself?

Or should I offer the guy a spot of tea and a biscuit?
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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Such as? I already have security systems that dial the police in both my more Rural and City homes. Good locks and doors, all that fun stuff.

But

Lets say, someone has busted into your house, with a knife, maybe a gun, or whatever.

Are going to take your chances that police may not show up in time? Or that this intruder might have other ideas besides robbing you and hurting you or your family?

Do you wait for the police? Who might not make it in time? ( At my main house, they won't for sure ), or do you pick up that weapon and do something about it?

That shotgun I keep upstairs, is the last resort, not the first one.

----------



I 100% support sane gun laws in the US of A.

Such as reregistration and a universal background check, and safety classes.
Awww come'on. Just hug the criminal that forced his way into your home & sing kumbaya songs.
[/S

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Ok, if he has one easily.

Shouldn't I be able to have my shotgun to at least TRY to defend myself?

Or should I offer the guy a spot of tea and a biscuit?
This is America. Try milk & Oreos instead:p
 

citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 22, 2010
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Let's look at the data

Burglary — 92 (all weapons) .7% of all 2011 homicide

Argument — 1,948 (firearms) over 15% of all 2011 homicide

And as for the likelihood of such an incident ...

In 2011, there were an estimated 2,188,005 burglaries—an increase of 0.9 percent when compared with 2010 data. [FBI]
The likelihood of being murdered in a burglary works out to 0.0042% of all burglaries.

Those are the numbers. Correct them if there's any mistake.


And btw, I really don't mind you having an opinion. It's just that your opinion was stated with such assuredness that I assumed there must be something behind it than just mere opinion. Just checking.
 

Michael Goff

Suspended
Jul 5, 2012
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*shrug*

Was just pointing out that the boat to sane restrictions on guns has been long gone in the US...

Just to many guns in the hands of questional people, might as well go back to the wild west.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/the-wild-west-of-myth-and-reality.html

People entering the town were required to surrender their firearms to the sheriff.
http://www.cracked.com/article_20372_5-ridiculous-myths-everyone-believes-about-wild-west_p2.html

#1. Guns Were Rampant in the Old West

The Reality:

Regardless of the public's perception, gun control laws may have actually been stricter back in the 19th and early 20th century than they are now, especially in the West. In the beginning, there was definitely gun violence, as there was neither standardized law nor a good way to enforce it, but the Wild West didn't stay wild forever.

As towns formed and communities grew, the need for and tolerance of handguns started to fall. Starting in 1878, some 25 years into the westward expansion, action was finally taken -- even places as wild as Dodge City started posting signs like this:



In fact, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral was caused by one gang being unwilling to abide by the anti-firearm rule of Tombstone.

But it's not like the six-shooter of the time was very dangerous anyway. They didn't even use regular bullets like they currently do, instead opting for the so-called "cap-and-ball" system that was little more than a marble launched by black powder. It had an effective range of maybe 50 feet. The Adams, one of the first revolvers introduced at the time and a hallmark weapon of the era, would burn the living hell out of your hand while launching the bullet. So you had to be really sure you wanted to shoot that dude.

That's why, even among those who used guns, six-shooters weren't the favorite. They were little more than a weapon of last resort. Shotguns and rifles were the preferred weapons, having both the power and the range to put down a mountain lion or a card-cheating son of a bitch. But who would ever want to watch a Western where cowboys were meeting at high noon to shoot each other in the face with huge shotguns?
http://www.unpopulartruth.com/2009/04/myths-of-old-west.html
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
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Criminal Mexi Midget
Let's look at the data

Burglary — 92 (all weapons) .7% of all 2011 homicide

Argument — 1,948 (firearms) over 15% of all 2011 homicide

And as for the likelihood of such an incident ...



The likelihood of being murdered in a burglary works out to 0.0042% of all burglaries.

Those are the numbers. Correct them if there's any mistake.


And btw, I really don't mind you having an opinion. It's just that your opinion was stated with such assuredness that I assumed there must be something behind it than just mere opinion. Just checking.
AWESOME numbers. Getting robbed/mugged is nearly like winning the lottery, guess those numbers would also be the equivalent of my chances if ever shooting a home intruder or mugger ? Cool. I like those odds

As for arguments, those are easy to deal with, actually learned it when taking martial arts, walk AWAY , things are that simple
 

G51989

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2012
2,506
10
NYC NY/Pittsburgh PA
Let's look at the data

Burglary — 92 (all weapons) .7% of all 2011 homicide

Argument — 1,948 (firearms) over 15% of all 2011 homicide

And as for the likelihood of such an incident ...



The likelihood of being murdered in a burglary works out to 0.0042% of all burglaries.

Those are the numbers. Correct them if there's any mistake.


And btw, I really don't mind you having an opinion. It's just that your opinion was stated with such assuredness that I assumed there must be something behind it than just mere opinion. Just checking.
Yes, I understand not a lot of murders take place that way.

I don't care, at all. At all, at all.

At all.

I have good windows, locks and doors, I don't have any enemies in life, I have a very nice security system at both my homes that automatically calls the police.

So I do it right.

You are talking like the first thing I am gonna do is grab a gun and shoot someone for a thrill.

Those weapons are a last resort, alarms are blaring, police are on their way, I'm shouting at him to get out, I don't hear him leaving.

Even if its a remote chance of me being killed.

If I am in a situation where I need to use that weapon to defend myself or my wife?

You better your ass I'm going to use it.

I also don't find the idea of killing someone very appealing, but if boiled down to a me or him situation.

It's me, not him.
 

Gutwrench

Contributor
Jan 2, 2011
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The likelihood of being murdered in a burglary works out to 0.0042% of all burglaries.
In my experience most residential burglars target homes where the residents are gone. A residential burglar targeting an occupied home is extremely dangerous and could likely be reported as a robbery/home invasion rather than a burglary anyway.