2012 Presidential Debates: Fourth Debate

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Blue Velvet, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Jul 4, 2004
    (Posting this final thread early as I’m busy and am not going to be around much)

    The final presidential debate’s topic is solely about foreign policy. Apparently, the format will be the same as the first debate in terms of structure, but it’s not clear whether this means Obama and Romney at podiums or seated around a table like the veep debate. My guess is that it’ll be around a table. So:

    The debate topics (not necessarily in this order and subject to change):

    • America's role in the world
    • Our longest war: Afghanistan and Pakistan
    • Red Lines: Israel and Iran
    • The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism I
    • The Changing Middle East and the New Face of Terrorism II
    • The Rise of China and Tomorrow's World​


    Where Lynn University in Boca Raton, Florida
    When Monday night, 22 October, 9-10:30pm Eastern
    Moderator Bob Schieffer (Bob Schieffer (Host of Face the Nation on CBS)
    Topic Foreign policy
    Coverage All the networks (in the UK, on BBC News 24)

    The three previous debate threads
    • 2012 Presidential Debates: First Debate
    • 2012 Presidential Debates: Second Debate (Biden/Ryan)
    • 2012 Presidential Debates: Third Debate

    State of the race projections (at 18 Oct)
    Drew Linzer at Votamatic: Obama 332 electoral votes, Romney 206
    Nate Silver at 538: Obama 287, Romney 251
    Sam Wang at Princeton Election Consortium: Obama 290, Romney 248
    (270 electoral college votes needed for a win)

    It's my opinion that Romney faces a difficult task, if only because he's the challenger, with no foreign policy experience or achievements to stand on.

    Pack your bags and let’s go...
  2. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Jul 4, 2004

    Since this thread should be about foreign policy, why should it matter where I'm from?

    Would be nice if people would ignore the usual suspects and stick vaguely to the topic.

    Here's something that people need to understand about conservatives, when it comes to foreign policy:

    In other words, it's all about appearances, not actions. 'Misson Accomplished' while leaving a complete screw-up behind.

    Particularly interested in reading later, anything any American ex-pats have to say about how the USA's foreign policy appears to you now that you've lived elsewhere in the world.
  3. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

    Oct 14, 2010
    I am looking forward to this one ... IMO, it is too close to call.

    The last debate I gave to Obama
  4. ericrwalker macrumors 68030


    Oct 8, 2008
    Albany, NY

    The last debate was close, but it doesn't matter much. It has some effect on a small amount of undecided people. It's not going to sway most people who have already decided, and the debate comes down to what BS you believed the most.
  5. tshrimp macrumors 6502


    Mar 30, 2012
    Ericwalker, you seem educated, so let me ask you a question about this upcoming debate. As we all know in the last debate Obama mentioned that in the Rose Garden he stated that the attacks in Libya were terrorist. When we read the transcript we see he was not referring to the attacks on Libya at all. Even if that was not the case and he meant it the way he said in the debate.....Will Romney bring up the fact that for 2 weeks after that he said it was over a video blaming the United States for the attacks, and even mentioned on the view that he would not call this a terrorist attack? Or do you think this topic is over for Romney?
  6. ericrwalker, Oct 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012

    ericrwalker macrumors 68030


    Oct 8, 2008
    Albany, NY
    I think that's a hard one, you and I know that he was talking in general that no terror acts will go unpunished. I think at this point it won't help him, the media is on his side for this one (as they are often).

    I think if he brings it up, bring up the YouTube video and it's significance instead of terrorism. Obama will just say he said the word terror from day one and the left will say I did read the word terror in the transcript.

  7. tshrimp macrumors 6502


    Mar 30, 2012
  8. bradl macrumors 68040


    Jun 16, 2008
    Looking at the blog, which has a very conservative slant (title reads "…integrating Christian faith and knowledge in the public square"), is as biased as the claim this person is making.

    Come back when you have a reputable source to back this up, then we will talk. Until then, this is as believable as the Mephisto wearing velvet pants on the first frozen day in Hades.

  9. ericrwalker macrumors 68030


    Oct 8, 2008
    Albany, NY
    LOL see it must come from MSNBC, The Daily Kos, The Daily Worker, or The Village Voice.
  10. vega07 macrumors 65816

    Aug 7, 2006
  11. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

    Oct 27, 2009
    She was right. Romney stated those words "act of terror" weren't used, but they were. She was also grauious and professional enough to make it clear what Romeny was really referring to. Something Romney couldn't do on his own.
  12. bradl macrumors 68040


    Jun 16, 2008
    You never saw that come out of my mouth.

    Credible = Reuters, AP, UPI, and other services in and out of the country. NPR is credible. PBS is credible. Local news is credible. Most get theirs from the AP or Reuters, and not a single one has reported any of this.

    So I say again, and even challenge you to find it (though I doubt you will). Find a reputable news source that is reporting this, otherwise, this has as much credibility as Kim Jong Il hitting a hole in one against Payne Stewart in the afterlife.

  13. zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    You are trying to manufacture controversy when there is none.

    I'm not going to waste my time discussing this again because we already had a 4 page thread going about this exact topic. I'll just repost what I said there in case you are too lazy to open that thread. If you want to discuss real issues, I'm game, but this horse died 2 days ago. 48 hours is enough time for beating a horse that was dead before we even found it.

  14. tshrimp macrumors 6502


    Mar 30, 2012
    Maybe I just missed it, but didn't' see where it stated why for the next two weeks did he call the attack a response to a YouTube video?
  15. zioxide, Oct 18, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012

    zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    You didn't miss anything. You are looking for something that didn't happen. If you actually look at the facts and timelines for the consulate attack on Benghazi and the concurrent but unrelated protests in Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Indonesia, etc, and you read the transcript of Obama's addresses regarding these events, you'll see that.

    The bottom line is that this an extremely complex issue with many moving parts. The problem here lies in the fact that our culture lies to dumb down things. It's like trying to write a book review on a 500 page book by reading three random words on page 157. You need to look at ALL of the facts and ALL the circumstances surrounding both the attack on Benghazi and the worldwide protests about the Innocence of Muslims video to see what actually happened.

    If you do, you'll see all of the media-created confusion and controversy has been created over something that never actually happened.

    I posted this in the Rose Garden thread:

    "This is not accurate, and the issue here is not that simple. Here are the facts:

    The first protest about the video "Innocence of Muslims" occurred at the US Embassy in Cairo, Egypt. It happened on the afternoon of September 11, 2012 BEFORE the attack on the embassy in Libya.

    - Ambassador Stevens was killed in an attack on our embassy in Benghazi on the evening of September 11, 2012 by an organized militia with automatic weapons, rocket-propelled grenades, and artillery.

    - On September 12, 2012, President Obama stood in the Rose Garden condemning the attack on the embassy in Benghazi, said the United States will not stand for this act of terror, and that we will hunt down the people responsible for this attack. Not ONCE in this address did he reference YouTube or mention the video "Innocence of Muslims." He did, however, call the consulate attack an "attack" no less than 5 times.

    - Over the next two weeks (from approx Sept 11 through Sept 27), there are protests worldwide over the Innocence of Muslims video. Some of these protests include US embassies in Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Greece, Sudan, India, and Pakistan. The embassies in Cairo (Egypt), Sana'a (Yemen), Tunis (Tunisia), and Jakarta (Indonesia), among others, are "attacked" by protestors (mostly just throwing rocks).

    - President Obama addressed the United Nations in New York City on September 25, 2012. (Full Transcript here)
    At the beginning of his address, he talks about Ambassador Stevens and the attack on the Benghazi consulate where he was killed.

    As we can see, he mentions the attack in Benghazi in the first two paragraphs. In the third and fourth paragraphs, he also mentions the ongoing protests at the other embassies worldwide. However, at no point in this text does he explicitly connect these events or even infer that the Benghazi attack was related to the protests.

    Later on in the address (in the video mudslag posted), President Obama discusses these protests that were still ongoing around the world at the time of this address.

    He goes in depth about the protests around the world regarding the Innocence of Muslims video, condemns the video, and reaffirms the fact that the United States government and the vast majority of the population do not suppor the video and are just as offended as the people who are protesting. In the last paragraph, he also talks about our first-amendment rights in this country, and how we support everyone's right to free speech and their own opinion even if their beliefs are unpopular or even denigrating or offensive to others.

    NOWHERE in this address to the United Nations did President Obama explicitly blame the attack on the Benghazi, and when you read and analyze the transcript in context, there is really nowhere you can even infer that he was trying to connect the two.

    - On September 28, 2012, after investigating for roughly two weeks, the Director of National Intelligence releases a statement saying the attack in Benghazi was a deliberate, coordinated terrorist attack. I'd say it's a good thing that they waited two weeks to get the facts before releasing this official statement. As we can see from all of the false and speculative reports beforehand, you need to wait for all of the facts to figure out what actually happened.

    This controversy is entirely media-manufactured. There were hundreds of conflicting and confusing media reports from the first couple of weeks after this attack. Many of these reports were just pure speculation and others were as a result of confusion between the attack and the ongoing protests. Many people only heard "attack on Benghazi" and "protests over youtube video" and automatically assumed the two are related. Romney tried to politicize the event before we even knew all of the facts, and both the liberal and conservative media began to spin the story.

    However, the facts remain that:
    (1) President Obama DID call the attack an act of terror in his Rose Garden address.
    (2) President Obama DID NOT connect the attack to the video in his Rose Garden address or in his September 25th address to the United Nations.

    These are the facts. This is the reality. You can keep trumpeting this fallacy that Romney is trying to perpetuate, but it's just not true. This horse is dead."
  16. balamw Moderator


    Staff Member

    Aug 16, 2005
    New England
    MOD NOTE: I tried to bring this thread back on track and split off any posts that went off on a tangent not immediately related to the debate and/or foreign policy.

    Please try to keep this thread for discussion about the upcoming debate or the topics that will be covered therein.

  17. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Jul 4, 2004

    You're a gentleman and a scholar. I know the work it takes and how little it really matters to MR. Thank you kindly. :)

    In regards to Libya, it appears the Romney campaign are quietly shelving their line of argument. I'm not surprised, considering how Obama laid down the law in the last debate.

    Anyone who wants to litigate this further should check out the NYT with its FAQs.

    Once again, with Republicans, it comes down to quibbling about words, not actions and my spidey-sense is that this story, in terms of wider public awareness, is now utterly played out with Obama's smackdown on Romney in the last debate and the Romney campaign not ramping this line of argument up before Monday's debate. The press has fact-checked it death, it's now five weeks since the attack and the dust has settled...

    Unless Obama announces the capture or killing of those responsible over the weekend or the coming days, that is. ;)
  18. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

    Jul 4, 2004
    So, who's watching tonight? And what do you expect to see happen?

    (Incidentally, word is that it'll be podiums, not seated around a table.)

    Some debate opinion:

    Daniel Larison at the American Conservative:


    Andrew Sprung:

  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn


    Jul 11, 2003
    I think I'll be skipping this one as I have to be up at 4am as I have a 7am flight to catch. I'll never fall asleep if I'm watching this.
  20. dscuber9000 macrumors 6502a

    Sep 16, 2007
    Indiana, US
    I've had a difficult time falling asleep after a few of the debates as well. :D
  21. edk99 macrumors 6502a

    May 27, 2009
    I'll be watching some Monday Night Football.

    A sitting President will always have the edge in a foreign policy debate but all Romney has to do is show this picture.

    Attached Files:

  22. yg17 macrumors G5


    Aug 1, 2004
    St. Louis, MO
    You have got to be ****ing kidding me :rolleyes:
  23. decafjava macrumors 68030


    Feb 7, 2011
    No he isn't.

  24. mcrain macrumors 68000


    Feb 8, 2002
    Reagan bowed to the queen of England. Ohhhhh noooo.
  25. zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    Romney would have them kiss his money.

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