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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by takao, Nov 4, 2009.
i suppose they won't be traveling to europe any more
Clearly just a fireworks show, these people will never serve the 5 year terms.
Probably not, should they? Yes.
If Italy wants them they can come get them. This isn't doing anything for them except harming US relations.
How old are you?
Old enough to know a feeble attempt at denouncing a more powerful nations actions when I see one.
so much for justice
Oh, I get it...the State Department reaction is all part of the administration's plan for better diplomatic relations with the rest of the world, right?
Really, if you expected the attitude of "we're the US so the laws don't apply to us" to change anytime soon, I've got a bridge to sell you...
It is not a "fireworks show". It is a properly constituted trial in a properly constituted court of law.
That will amount to nothing in the end, they know it, we know it.
So in 10-15 years you'll be happy to hand them over to the Chinese.
Good to know.
No, what they and we know is that those people will never dare set their foot in Italy again, and that the CIA will no longer think they can break the law in other countries with impunity. This is a good thing, and I'm all for it.
I´m no lawyer but it seems wrong to call it "proper" when the accused aren't even at the trial.
In Italy trials in absentia are allowed.
Well if there were any questions about how far gone the US federal government was/is or Obama's position on the subject, they've been answered now. Obama and the US Federal government do in fact condone kidnapping and torture. That's sick!
Gee, who was president in 2007?
It's amazing how your mind is able to come to that conclusion based off one sentence, especially given the fact that Obama has ended torture and is working on closing Gitmo.
there were also italians in front of the court .. and of course the US americans were represented by their lawyers
and for those saying this will have no consequences: since italy is actually a country allied with the US and the US having bases in italy it would be foolish underestimate the impact this could have .. not only in public opinion in europe (and thus political decisions) but also in terms of cooperation between US secret services and european services
Funnily enough, the Italians who were involved, four of them, were not charged.
Courageous isn't the word that comes to mind.
Edit: I stand corrected. Italians were also convicted.
The CIA station chief in Rome also was not convicted. I expect the Italians have accepted in absentia rulings because of all the Mafiosi who cannot be brought to trial.
FAIL right there
edit: make that double fail:
US laws/policies in an italian court room .. congratulations
No, he's just having it moved and renamed. It's still torture and THEY (AS IN MULTIPLE!!!) are still secret, constitutionally illegal, prisons! Like most things Obama has done it looks good in press to sleeping morons but it's the same or worse than before.
Which emphasizes even more that it is a "symbolic" ruling. If you can't enforce it, then it's a symbolic gesture. It'll be interesting to see what the appeal(s) bring.
The best would be if after two appeals, the agents still lose and then the Italian's secret service "kidnap" the CIA agents to make them fulfill their sentence.
Were they represented by "their" lawyers or court appointed lawyers? I´ve read several articles and haven't seen anything mentioning the defense.
EDIT: Just saw your last post. But it does say that most never even met with their clients. Hmm...
EDIT2: This article says the lawyers were court appointed and never met with the accused. Double hmm...
How does the fact that spokeswomen for the State Department saying they are disappointed in the verdict, show/prove Obama´s position? Especially that of torture? That seems quite the stretch.
That's how governments work. They voice approval or disapproval, make appearances, etc. to show their standing. Assuming these comments are current and comments about the conviction weren't made at the beginning of the trial (LOL), this shows that the current administration stands ethically opposite of the court's findings. Otherwise it would either be a "no comment" or there would be a congratulations, or whatever. Even where the convicts are housed is usually an official statement on the crime and the criminals being held. The State Department doesn't "speak" independently of the President without there being a ruckus over it.
So there's no other reason to be disappointed in the verdict against the Americans and Italians?
The State Department couldn't be disappointed that:
Or that the convictions will cause more friction in US-Italian-European relations.
As I stated before, it seems like quite a stretch to go from expressing disappointment, to condoning kidnapping.
Yes, it seems to be complex -- one of the CIA station chiefs (Milan, right?) was convicted. So it wasn't so cowardly as, say, the US response to Abu Ghraib.