#45 is destroying American farmers, the one sector US dominates now threatened with ruin.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by PracticalMac, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. PracticalMac macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Houston, TX
    #1
    #45 is destroying American farmers, the one sector US dominates now threatened with ruin.

    American farmers are the most productive in the world, not just outproducing most food crops, but are also the largest producer of some crops like Almond, that is 10x more than #2 producer Spain. This is one sector USA matches or even beats prices in other countries (Not surprisingly China does not want to even think of putting tariff on Almonds).

    In China trust of Chinese food is low due to years of poisoning and scandals with food. Instead China relies on USA for massive quantities of safe food at affordable prices and is highly valued, especially pork.
    This is one area the USA has massive trade surplus, and makes China #3 export market.
    In short, China is hitting right where it will hurt the USA the most.

    MarketPlace called some farmers about what they are seeing in market, so go hear Wednesdays episode.
    http://play.publicradio.org/edit/d/podcast/marketplace/pm/2018/04/04/pm_20180404_pod_64.mp3

    Need more data? Here is a report on it:
    Full list of what China will tarrif:
    Below is the full list of products that are set to be subject to duties.
    1. Yellow soybean
    2. Black soybean
    3. Corn
    4. Cornflour
    5. Uncombed cotton
    6. Cotton linters
    7. Sorghum
    8. Brewing or distilling dregs and waste
    9. Other durum wheat
    10. Other wheat and mixed wheat
    11. Whole and half head fresh and cold beef
    12. Fresh and cold beef with bones
    13. Fresh and cold boneless beef
    14. Frozen beef with bones
    15. Frozen boneless beef
    16. Frozen boneless meat
    17. Other frozen beef chops
    18. Dried cranberries
    19. Frozen orange juice
    20. Non-frozen orange juice
    21. Whiskies
    22. Unstemmed flue-cured tobacco
    23. Other unstemmed tobacco
    24. Flue-cured tobacco partially or totally removed
    25. Partially or totally deterred tobacco stems
    26. Tobacco waste
    27. Tobacco cigars
    28. Tobacco cigarettes
    29. Cigars and cigarettes, tobacco substitutes
    30. Hookah tobacco
    31. Other tobacco for smoking
    32. Reconstituted tobacco
    33. Other tobacco and tobacco substitute products
    34. SUVs with discharge capacity of 2.5L to 3L
    35. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 2500ml, but not exceeding 3000ml for SUVs (4 wheel drive)
    36. Vehicles with discharge capacity of 1.5L to 2L
    37. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 1000ml, but not exceeding 1500ml for SUVs (4 wheel drive)
    38. Passenger cars with discharge capacity 1.5L to 2L, 9 seats or less
    39. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 1000ml, but not exceeding 1500ml for 9 passenger cars and below
    40. Passenger cars with discharge capacity of 3L to 4L, 9 seats or less
    41. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 3000ml, but not exceeding 4000ml for 9 passenger cars and below
    42. Off-road vehicles with discharge capacity of 2L to 2.5L
    43. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 2000ml, but not exceeding 2500ml for off-road vehicles
    44. Passenger cars with discharge capacity of 2L to 2.5L, 9 seats or less
    45. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 2000ml, but not exceeding 2500ml for 9 passenger cars and below
    46. Off-road vehicles with discharge capacity of 3L to 4L
    47. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 3000ml, but not exceeding 4000ml for off-road vehicles
    48. Diesel-powered off-road vehicles with discharge capacity of 2.5L to 3L
    49. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 2500ml, but not exceeding 3000ml for diesel-powered off-road vehicles
    50. Passenger cars with discharge capacity of 2.5L to 3L, 9 seats or less
    51. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement exceeding 2500ml, but not exceeding 3000ml for 9 passenger cars and below
    52. Off-road vehicles with discharge capacity of less than 4L
    53. Other vehicles equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source. Cylinder capacity displacement not exceeding 4000ml for off-road vehicles
    54. Other vehicles which are equipped with an ignited reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor and can be charged by plugging in an external power source
    55. Other vehicles that are equipped with a compression ignition type internal combustion engine (diesel or semi-diesel) and a drive motor, other than vehicles that can be charged by plugging in an external power source
    56. Other vehicles which are equipped with an ignition reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor and can be charged by plugging in an external power source
    57. Other vehicles that are equipped with a compression-ignition reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and a drive motor that can be charged by plugging in an external power source
    58. Other vehicles that only drive the motor
    59. Other vehicles
    60. Other gasoline trucks of less than 5 tons
    61. Transmissions and parts for motor vehicles not classified
    62. Liquefied Propane
    63. Primary Shaped Polycarbonate
    64. Supported catalysts with noble metals and their compounds as actives
    65. Diagnostic or experimental reagents attached to backings, except for goods of tariff lines 32.02, 32.06
    66. Chemical products and preparations for the chemical industry and related industries, not elsewhere specified
    67. Products containing PFOS and its salts, perfluorooctanyl sulfonamide or perfluorooctane sulfonyl chloride in note 3 of this chapter
    68. Items listed in note 3 of this chapter containing four, five, six, seven or octabromodiphenyl ethers
    69. Contains 1,2,3,4,5,6-HCH (6,6,6) (ISO), including lindane (ISO, INN)
    70. Primarily made of dimethyl (5-ethyl-2-methyl-2oxo-1,3,2-dioxaphosphorin-5-yl)methylphosphonate and double [(5-b Mixtures and products of 2-methyl-2-oxo-1,3,2-dioxaphosphorin-5-yl)methyl] methylphosphonate (FRC-1)
    71. 38248600a articles listed in note 3 to this chapter containing PeCB (ISO) or Hexachlorobenzene (ISO)
    72. Containing aldrin (ISO), toxaphene (ISO), chlordane (ISO), chlordecone (ISO), DDT (ISO) [Diptrix (INN), 1,1,1-trichloro-2 ,2-Bis(4-chlorophenyl)ethane], Dieldrin (ISO, INN), Endosulfan (ISO), Endrin (ISO), Heptachlor (ISO) or Mirex (ISO). The goods listed in note 3 of this chapter
    73. Other carrier catalysts
    74. Other polyesters
    75. Reaction initiators, accelerators not elsewhere specified
    76. Polyethylene with a primary shape specific gravity of less than 0.94
    77. Acrylonitrile
    78. Lubricants (without petroleum or oil extracted from bituminous minerals)
    79. Diagnostic or experimental formulation reagents, whether or not attached to backings, other than those of heading 32.02, 32.06
    80. Lubricant additives for oils not containing petroleum or extracted from bituminous minerals
    81. Primary Shaped Epoxy Resin
    82. Polyethylene Terephthalate Plate Film Foil Strips
    83. Other self-adhesive plastic plates, sheets, films and other materials
    84. Other plastic non-foam plastic sheets
    85. Other plastic products
    86. Other primary vinyl polymers
    87. Other ethylene-α-olefin copolymers, specific gravity less than 0.94
    88. Other primary shapes of acrylic polymers
    89. Other primary shapes of pure polyvinyl chloride
    90. Polysiloxane in primary shape
    91. Other primary polysulphides, polysulfones and other tariff numbers as set forth in note 3 to chapter 39 are not listed.
    92. Plastic plates, sheets, films, foils and strips, not elsewhere specified
    93. 1,2-Dichloroethane (ISO)
    94. Halogenated butyl rubber sheets, strips
    95. Other heterocyclic compounds
    96. Adhesives based on other rubber or plastics
    97. Polyamide-6,6 slices
    98. Other primary-shaped polyethers
    99. Primary Shaped, Unplasticized Cellulose Acetate
    100. Aromatic polyamides and their copolymers
    101. Semi-aromatic polyamides and their copolymers
    102. Other polyamides of primary shape
    103. Other vinyl polymer plates, sheets, strips
    104. Non-ionic organic surfactants
    105. Lubricants (containing oil or oil extracted from bituminous minerals and less than 70% by weight)
    106. Aircraft and other aircraft with an empty weight of more than 15,000kg but not exceeding 45,000kg


    Oh, and the insult to US Ag business:
    #1 and #2 export market?
    Canada and Mexico.
    You know, those 2 countries in the NAFTA pact, who could also decide to put tariffs on US Ag goods.
     
  2. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #2
    The tariffs have been announced but not enacted. Let us hope that sanity reigns before they are. However, if this trade war does start in earnest, and the PRC targets Trump's base, then I will have no sympathy. And neither will the GOP, who will no doubt cut yet again anything that looks like a social safety net in the current budget wrangling. It's not like voters weren't repeatedly warned about Trump's and the GOP's policies.

    I do think Trump has a point regarding unfair PRC trade practices. Also, I do not think that the PRC will abandon them without pressure, and there is a chance that Trump's gamble will work. However, perhaps pressure on the PRC could have been applied in a more coordinated way, like getting the EU and and other trading blocs to act in unison. As it stands know, all of this is creating uncertainty, which has an economic, and, ultimately, a human price.
     
  3. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #3
    China has taken advantage of the US with lopsided trade agreements for years. This won't be negotiable when China grows even more powerful.
     
  4. GermanSuplex macrumors 6502a

    GermanSuplex

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    Aug 26, 2009
    #4
    Trump is a moron who was born rich and ripped people off for decades. He was never in the military, never farmed, he's a NYC liberal racist elite. When he opens his mouth, he is 1) Lying and 2) Saying something moronic.

    What did they expect? A NYC real estate conman would save them? By ripping off world leaders, congress, etc. like he did to build his "empire?" A guy who's brother died from alcoholism, who doesn't drink, launches a Vodka brand.

    Seriously, you get what you vote for.
     
  5. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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  6. LovingTeddy macrumors 65816

    LovingTeddy

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    #6
    Well. US has take advantage of lots of things from the world.

    It doesn’t matter much, China won’t just waive white flag and surrender, they know what exactly to do and inject most pain to US and Trump’s base. Trump is not going to stay in power forever. He only can do maximum 8 years. The Chinese president Xinhas no term limit. They can impose their policy as long as they want, they have the patient.

    It is the idiotic Trump start the trade war, you can blame China all you want for its “unfair” practices, it seems to me only US complaining about China, where other US’s allies are happen to take over US and trade with China. China will not back down, you can just wait and see how China plays.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 5, 2018 ---
    It is funny to see how Trump contradicts himself. He want to help American auto industry, but he ignored fact of 15% of American cars were exported to China, 25% of US commiefal Aircraft were exported to China. Whe. China start to impose high tariffs on US cars and aircraft, who do you think stand to loss? Chia can easily replace US car with its domestic, Japanese, German and Korea car and replace Boeing with Air Bus.
     
  7. PracticalMac, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018

    PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #7
    There is no sanity with #45 in office.
    His base wants #45 to do 2 things, build a wall and make Coal and Steel a growth industry again.

    Agree x2.
    It is HOW #45 is doing it.
    Instead of trying to minimize the downsides and choose most advantageous to US paths, he is throwing everything into chaos.
     
  8. Huntn, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018

    Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #8
    Anyone who still needs evidence Trump is a moron for this circumstance listen to his statement that trade wars are easy to win. The problem is he either means it, or it’s another of his wreckless bluffs and it demeans the office of which he has temporary custody.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 5, 2018 ---
    Regarding coal he says that for his West Va suckers.* We should be demanding no funds for a wall until he personally negotiates a deal with Mexico where they pay for it. You know, a campaign promise. :rolleyes::oops: I’d be loling all over the place, if he was not in the middle of his scam to fool some of us, apparantly enough to keep him in office.

    * Not bad mouthing West Virginians in general. My Mom’s Family is from West Va, via Pittsburg.
     
  9. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #9
  10. ericgtr12 macrumors 65816

    ericgtr12

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    #10
    Those who have supported him the most are getting screwed the hardest. Working middle class Americans who are seeing their healthcare skyrocket and jobs getting slashed while paying more for everything from cars to consumer electronics, and soon food products thanks to Chinese retaliations. All at the expense of the people because Trump has a personal beef with these countries. All I can say is they asked for it and now they got it, the rest of us are just stuck with it.
     
  11. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #11
    China will find other trade partners and keep growing. The rest of the world will move on, the US will get sidelined by its protectionism.
     
  12. SusanK macrumors 68000

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    #12
    This would be a good time for Trump to take out that map of the states he won. Maybe one of his illustrious advisers could show him a map of the states he is screwing with his stupid tariffs. In a few years Stable Genius may be able to connect the dots if they give him a big bright colored crayon.
     
  13. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #13
    Nah.
     
  14. Strider64 macrumors 6502a

    Strider64

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    #14
    My guess is if Trump keeps acting recklessly and doesn't come back to reality the GOP base is going to throw Trump under the bus and say to the Democrats "Have Fun!".
     
  15. ericgtr12 macrumors 65816

    ericgtr12

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    #15
    So far you're describing the midterms pretty much exactly.
     
  16. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #16
    That's what China said while they worked out their response to US tariff provocations (after one of their spokesmen commented "it's only polite to reciprocate"). The FT ran a map of the potential jobs impact by US county. "No state left behind..."

    Even my rural upstate NY county with its 50k residents (and 14k jobs) would lose about 2% of those jobs. Those voters went for Donald Trump 60-33 with Johnson taking 3%.


    Jobs Potentially Affected by Chinese Tariffs - By US County.jpg
     
  17. Zenithal macrumors 604

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    Sep 10, 2009
    #17
    You reap what you sow.

    Don't forget the hefty tariff on cars and SUVs. China is a burgeoning market for American automobile manufacturers, especially GM.
     
  18. Naaaaak macrumors 6502

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    #18
    Another "Trump is ending the world" thread based on an endless pit of leftist outrage. Gotta hit the subscribe button on this one.

    I've been to the future:
    He unleashes the tariffs and farming still happens.

    You know what screws up farming? Lack of water. California Democrats love not building dams because "muh environment must never change or else some bird might have to change trees". California Democrats love directing the little water we have away from farmers and into a river that flushes into the ocean to sustain a non-native fish. Farming will become a problem when droughts and decades of water and infrastructure mis-management make it one.

    If we have to re-allocate resources in an one field to correct trade deficits in others, so be it; the trade deficit is overwhelmingly one way. At this point I just want to see what happens and if all "the experts" will ever be right. They've been wrong up to and since the election.
     
  19. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #19
    Start in earnest? This Trade War has not only started, it's already ESCALATED. Trump does not back down on fights he started. He doubles down and ramps up the tension even more. Every. Single. Time.

    Here is the proof:

    Trump proposes $100 billion MORE in new tariffs on China (April 5, 2018)

     
  20. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #20
    Endless pit of leftist outrage? The thoroughly Republican Speaker of the House publicly reprimanded Trump more than a month ago about the dangers of a trade war.

    Our trade deficits were already dropping vis a vis China because of the burgeoning middle class over there. "Don't fix what's not seriously broken" is not a concept that rings any bells with Donald Trump, I guess. It's not just impact of tariffs on farming. It's the reciprocity, the tit for tat, the ongoing "oh yeah? watch this!" and pretty soon the guy who was doing light electronics assembly here with 10 employees has no job orders because China no longer feels compelled to balance off those imports with something they exported to us until we said on no you're not dumping that over here any more. So we shift gears figuring ok nm we'll trade in Latin America but China's already there farming and buying the crops for export to back home, and furthermore Mexico's busy making bilateral agreements with Latin American countries in case the US is suicidal enough to ditch NAFTA.

    The Chinese just took us to the WTO over the original tariffs, by the way... stay tuned.

    Trump says trade wars are easy to win. Then he says "but we're negotiating". In other words he just realized he stirred a pot the wrong way at the wrong time. He walked away from TPP, where China is not a member. He abdicated a chance to be a regional player in the East quite independently from the supplier-buyer relationship we still do have with China which could have stood some renegotiations but now there's at least an undercurrent of anger on both sides. The guy is so incompetent it's sickening.
     
  21. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #21
    But but but trade wars are good, and easy to win! Said a moron in the White House.


    Screen Shot 2018-04-05 at 7.36.48 PM.png
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #22
    China charges 30% on some cars before the "trade war" even started. Trade war was already being won on China's side, Trump is just throwing a hat into the ring.
     
  23. Lloydbm41 Suspended

    Lloydbm41

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    #23
    Sorry, this post is off topic. This is the first time I have seen the 'spoiler' tag used. Didn't even know this had been implemented! Cool.
     
  24. Zenithal macrumors 604

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    #24
    Of course farmers will still farm. Their biggest buyer just looked elsewhere. With China shaping Africa, we'll probably see certain African countries morphed into farm land, gas and oil fields, refineries, etc.

    At a price loss to farmers, nut prices will hopefully come down. We tend to go through 5-6 lb of almonds a month.
    That doesn't take away from the fact that vehicles just became harder to move than before. The Chinese don't like their own country's vehicles. They prefer foreign vehicles. Big cars with smart emissions.
     
  25. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #25
    To be fair, I think that the trade imbalance did exist to a good degree, and that it had to be addressed. But addressing it through a "trade war" not only harms both USA and China unnecessarily, it also harms the USA in many other ways…. like everyone's 401k just losing thousands in the last couple weeks. You so-called fiscal Republicans should know this, since nothing tanks Wall Street more than a trade war.

    So back to "addressing the issue". Yes, the trade deficit really was a problem, I don't deny that POTUS has a point about that. But he could have done so many other things before jumping to an outright "declaration of (trade) war". He could have used hard-ball negotiating tactics to put pressure on China. This could have been done quietly, by sending his Economic secretaries or Pence to Beijing. Many strategists have even said that this economic pressure on China could also have been applied to buy us leverage in the NK issue. Remember that your beloved Trump claims to be such a Great Negotiator. If true, then why didn't he use his fabulous negotiating tactics to pressure China to tamp down its unfair trade behavior, instead of jumping to an all-out trade war?

    Like real military (shooting) wars, there really are no winners in a trade war. Everyone just suffers casualties and damages all around, some more than others. That's why countries use diplomacy, threats, negotiations, bluffs, and even threats of embargo…. to avoid resorting to actual shooting wars. Because everyone knows that a military war should be the last resort. The same thing with trade wars. It should have been the last resort.
     

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