70 years ago today: the US Army reaches the Elbe

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #126
    so you're thinking the germans didn't do anything during WW2 that they should be ashamed of? The nazi era was perfectly ok in your thinking? :p

    There's no reason that today's germans should feel any personal guilt, but your idea that their country's actions during WW2 isn't something they should be ashamed of is simply to deny what was done.
     
  2. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #127
    At no point did I ever say that Nazi crimes should be forgotten, but to hold a nation responsible 70 years on is just not going to work.

    The Germany's of today are not going to be ashamed for crimes how ever terrible, that their forefathers did.

    If any country learnt it's lessons from WWII it's Germany.
     
  3. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #128
    It's too bad Europe and the USA are boycotting Russia's 70th celebration because of Ukraine. This solemn anniversary should be above petty politics. At least Angela Merkel is laying a wreath in Moscow.
     
  4. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #129
    After Russia's action in Ukraine in the last year, It cannot be business as usual.

    The door to further negotiations must be kept open however, so a total boycot would have been a step to far.

    Of course today is the day 75 years ago that Germany invaded the Netherlands.
     
  5. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #130
    well see there's your problem......You don't learn from history by pretending that shameful actions weren't shameful.....shameful actions don't get sanitized and converted to something acceptable just because somebody wishes they could forget about what their elders did.

    There's a difference between the idea that today's germans should assume guilt for their elders' crimes, something neither of us believe, and the idea that they shouldn't view those crimes as shameful crimes, an idea which you seem to be promoting.

    As much as you may prefer, there's no whitewashing over what germany did in WW2. It may make todays germans unhappybunnies, but they just have to get on with their lives knowing that they're ok because they're not repeating those mistakes.
     
  6. caesarp, May 10, 2015
    Last edited: May 10, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #131
    I repeat (you as most people, don't understand why the Holocaust is DIFFERENT). Almost anything done by the U.S. or any other country PALES in comparison to mechanized factories of mass death of civilian kids, women and old people, and starvation deaths for the rest (and by a supposedly civilized/cultured country -- not some 3rd world country or peasant revolution). And where resources were diverted from the war effort to feed the maw of the factories of death. And where people were purposely gathered up from numerous places, massed together and then sent to the factories of death (as opposed to just being in the way of advancing armies or revolutionaries.

    The fact that there are wars and people die is beside the point. The german policy towards jews and other groups had nothing to do with war (other than they were able to gather more of those groups in the occupied lands).

    Wars have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. And again, your trying to put the Indian wars or other things done by the U.S. as a comparison shows your complete ignorance regarding the Holocaust, the way it was implemented, by whom and how. That's the point - people point to deaths caused by wars (or collateral damage) and compare that to the holocaust. Its not the same thing. Not even close.
     
  7. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #132
    The Germans view those crimes like every other sane person, as a crime against humanity.
    But they do not take collective guilt.

    I'm getting the idea that some people want to keep the Germans on the naughty step. Because they are frightened that otherwise it might be THEM on the naughty step.

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    I have to ask again why are you so obsessed with Nazi Death Camps?
     
  8. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #133
    I would be sad if they don't feel shame. That's all. I don't live in the past, but I would expect those related to notorious mass murderers would not be happy about it.

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    Does being ashamed of the past make you a prisoner of the past? I don't think so. But Germans today should certainly learn from the past.

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    Yes, precisely.
     
  9. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #134
    speaking of the naughty step, you seem pretty sensitive to what people might think about what went on in the Netherlands during WW2......what is it you aren't telling us? :p
     
  10. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #135
    True, but I think Merkel had the right idea: don't endorse Putin by appearing at Red Square but do make an appeareance. After all, the history belongs to all of us.
     
  11. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #136
    I do know that certain children of prominate Nazi's did feel shame, whether or not their grandchildren did I cannot say.

    There is no country that has learnt more lessons from WWII than Germany.

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    Quite correct.
     
  12. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #137
    Define "obsessed". I'm pointing out why Germans should feel shame about them. And why they were very different from other atrocities committed by other countries or during other wars.
     
  13. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #138
    Indeed.....there's nothing like a lengthy series of war crime trials and purges to teach a firm lesson.
     
  14. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #139
    Yeah, what did he or his relatives do during the war? Hmmmmm?
     
  15. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #140
    After the war we had our special courts for the NSB's and other collaborators, a few were put to death, many were given jail time.
     
  16. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #141


    Except that only a tiny percentage of SS guards, and other direct perpetrators of the Holocaust were ever prosecuted. Many lived openly in Germany (or elsewhere) until their death by natural causes.
     
  17. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #142
    Nothing special, he kept the family business going.
     
  18. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #143
    A tiny fraction of those responsible.
     
  19. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #144
  20. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #145
  21. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #146
    Well if that's what you get out of all that, then so be it.

    You know that's no true, you should never be made to feel ashamed for something you didn't do.
     
  22. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #147
    If my ancestor worked for the CIA department that let in former Nazis or operation paperclip directly I'd be ashamed.
     
  23. mojolicious macrumors 68000

    mojolicious

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    #148

    Are you a Fokker?
     
  24. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #149
    That would be your personal right, but to expect everybody else to share that shame, is just a bit naive.

    The Moon landings were made possible by Nazi scientists, I just bet that got over looked in the moments of PRIDE as the US landed on the moon.

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    I do have children.:p
     
  25. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #150
    what's to overlook? Everything was sanitized by the applying the Happybunny magic moral conversion formula :rolleyes:
     

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