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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MACDRIVE, Jul 18, 2006.
Whilst I admire the sentiment, I think it should be remembered that all those achievements could be taken away by just one nuclear missile.
Arrogance comes before a fall. Israelis needs to remember that before they start shouting how they'll be around forever.
However, when you consider what they have been through as a people, I think we can give them a little leeway in that regard.
BTW, the Arab Israeli six day war is a good military art study -- especially in the field of Armor.
Just making the point that with arrogance comes complacency, then before you know it you're the target of something that you didn't expect. Nobody is victorious in that arena yet, if they'll ever be.
Your point is well taken.
Another lesson of the six-day war is that Israel performed so well because they were totally commited - the country was completely mobilized and focused on the war. The Arabs, on the other hand had troops, but they also had people relaxing with coffee in Damascus and Cairo, who were largely oblivious/apathetic to the goings on.
If the Arabs ever become as commited as the Israelis were, Israel is in trouble.
I heard an interview yesterday with an Israeli man talking about the death of innocent children in Lebanon and Palestine as a result of this conflict.
He said he felt very bad for the children and that the children of his Muslim
friends have sat on his lap many times, but they are not sacred human beings.
Hows that for perspective?
I also listened to an interview with an Extremist Evangelical Christian group who is forming a lobbying group to promote extensive support by Christians for Israel.
In his view, Israel is the only nation created by God.
Of course he and many other Evangelical Christians believe that when Jesus returns,
all the Jews will convert to Christianity.
I didn't interpret the author as being arrogant, but as a sentiment of proud defience. From his point of view, the whole entire Middle East population wants him dead, and he is just refusing to give in.
Look what is happening to the U.S.
A major cause behind many of the problems we have? The attitude that we're American, better than you, stronger than you and you can't touch us.
Arrogance -> Complacency -> Downfall
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any MacRumors members who are Jewish. All I've been hearing in this political forum is how everyone thinks the Jews are overpowering the Lebanese and how they have no regard for human lives. I believe the Jews are just trying to defend themselves from a bunch of Muslim lunatics who want to take over the world.
On the issue of Lebanese casualties; I believe the Hezbollah would inflict a far greater number of Jewish civilian casualties if they could. They still haven't used their Iranian made long range missiles yet, which are capable of reaching Tel Aviv.
To all of the Jewish members here at MacRumors:
For God's sake PLEASE speak up and let yourselves be heard!
What the hell does your religion have to do with the violent and aggressive right wing foreign policy of the state of Israel?
It's not like anti-violence = anti-Semite.
The question is, anti-violence from whom? As for "right wing" I will repeat a comment I made earlier, which is that from left to right in Israel, they all seem to agree that being wiped off the map is not desirable. A surprise? I hope not. Also, I would add that the dominant political force in Israel currently is the new centrist party.
The problem with your argument is your reference to "the Arabs." Who are "the Arabs?" For decades, we've heard about "Arab unity," but this has never actually occurred. And why should it? Arabs are not a country, they are hardly even one ethnic group. This is an illusion used by Arab political leaders, or would-be leaders, to conjure up visions of Suleiman, or some other great Islamic figure from the distant past. Saddam like to think of himself as the great Arab unifier. No sale. Nobody bought it.
Also, I don't know why I seem to have to mention this over and over again, but Israel has only one hostile country on its borders, Syria. The only other significant military power in the immediate neighborhood is Egypt, and they signed a peace accord in 1978 and are now the recipients of billions in U.S. aid, largely military, every year.
IJR, I'm puzzled as to why you left out Iran? I realize they are not on Israel's border, but don't you think that Iran wants Israel destroyed?
One other question for you: In your opinion are the IDF good people or bad people?
Well, Iran isn't an Arab country. He was referring to the Arab section, but Iranians are Persian. Might not seem like a big difference until you call a Persian an Arab. They don't like that. I dated a Persian girl for awhile and received the full 411 on the differences.
Exactly. One of my clients is Iranian-born (although he has a Kiwi accent). They are Persian and speak Farsi, not Arabic. They also aren't even all muslim. Just because the religious right are in command of a country doesn't follow that they have the backing of all the people
Ok what about my other question as to whether the IDF is an army of bad people?
Oooooh.. Israel has always managed to defend and beat other armies.. yeah sure, when all their weapons etc.. are supplied by the USA. Sheesh you could arm the Maldives with F-16s and missiles, weapons, etc.. and they could probably defeat Sri Lanka in a battle.
And somewhere on cnn I read that the Israeli army general (or foreign minister.. whoever) quoted that Israeli strikes are 'surgical' and limited to 'terrorists' and not civilians..what bloody hogwash. I just keep reading everyday that civilians in Lebanon are being killed and infrastructure is being destroyed.
Pakistan had a hand in the bomb blasts in Mumbai (in fact - all terrorist activities in India) I don't think we'll see the Indian army heading to Pakistan, destroying their airports, seaports, killing civilians, etc..will we? I have never seen a more hypocritical administration than the current American one, and I am ashamed to be living here.
That could be something to do with Pakistan having nuclear weapons. If every country in the world had them, we'd have a lot less war. Funny how those who do have them are the ones that want to stop their prolifiration. Then they say it's to protect us, not because they'll lose most of the leverage they currently have against weaker countries.
Nukes for all I say. Even Switzerland.
So is that a yes? Do you believe the IDF are bad people?
The IDF are following orders, presumably, so you should be looking at those issuing the orders - as in the invasion and occupation of Iraq and the ongoing slaughter and mistreatment of Iraqis - at least as much as those carrying them out. However, judging by the long history of massacres and atrocities perpetrated by the IDF, it must also be true that many of its members are trained and willing to see their adversaries as less than equal in human terms. You don't bulldoze and steal people's houses and pen millions of them into an arid stretch of coastal scrub without regarding them as untermenschen.
I watched a 2 hour meeting late last night on C-SPAN discussing the Muslim perspective on all of this, including American Muslims, European Muslims and those in the Middle East and Asia.
The two greatest problems were anti-American sentiments building ever since we invaded Iraq and what all the panel experts deemed as the greatest obsticle to peace, which is the 800 pound gorilla of U.S. support for Israel.
I wish I could remember the names of the American Muslim experts, but one put the cards on the table quite well.
The invasion of Afghanistan to bring Bin Laden to justice was widely supported. Our invasion of Iraq is where the majority of problems
The Bush administration's foreign policies have done more harm to
the image of our country in the last 5 years, than any event in history.
They have seen conquerers all the way back to Alexander the Great and latter conquests from European countries attempting to exploit the wealth of the region.
They know this is all about oil and the congressional committee members flat out admitted that this is all about oil and our need to secure uninterrupted supplies from the M.E.
There are also continuous problems with stereotyping on both sides.
The majority of Western nations have a very poor understanding of
Muslim culture and divisions within that culture.
We do not seem to understand that moderate Muslims welcome Western style democracy, but as the situation worsens in the M.E. more and more
Muslims are driven to fight amongst themselves for recognition.
The most disturbing survey results showed 1 out of 7 Muslims feel that
suicide bombing can be justified in certain situations, but those are the extremist views not held by the vast majority.
Even so, it's obviously a problem.
Our mis-handling of events in the M.E. has now elevated Osama Bin Laden
to Shiek in many African regions. He has become a religious symbol against the exploitation of Muslim wealth by Western nations.
It's all very complicated as anyone can imagine, but the only solution is a better understanding between cultures.
While the majority of moderate Muslims welcome democracy, the old guard
does not want our Western lifestyle imposed on their people.
It will take many years before they accept the role of women as equals if ever. They feel Western lifestyle threatens the teachings of Islam and that
is no easy hurdle to overcome.
Of course not. I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous question. Virtually every citizen of Israel has to serve in the IDF.
No, no this is quite untrue. Materiel means almost nothing if the armed forces aren't properly trained to use it. Israel's neighbors have been supplied with some very good Soviet military hardware over the decades, including tanks, aircraft and AA missiles. Unfortunately the IDF gets a lot of live-fire practice.
To think a nuke can solve anything, is ridiculous speculation.
the world has not seen a tactical nuclear device of todays magnitude and complexity ever used for anything but testing.
so if anyone, rogue or superpowers, launched a nuke anywhere and hit anywhere, i dont care if its Antarctica, the world would react in a way we can not even comprehend.
why any terrorist state feels its up to them to get a nuke and use it against their enemies, is crazy. any nuke launched would immediately have another 5, 10 maybe even 100 launched elsewhere, by people maybe not even considered enemies.
to have a nuke in defense is to use it when someone else uses theirs first. I think the nuclear powers, and fledgling ones like Iran and n. korea, are just totally and utterly insane. Yeaaaaaa you country is a nuclear power. Now what? Are you gonna use it? And pretty much doom your country and all its people and all your neighbors to a fiery and horrbile death?
in the end one nuke = world destruction for probably 1/3 of the planet. Lets hope the wind isnt blowing NW that day. Sorry EU.