A Matter of Perspective

skunk

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UN chief dismay at Gaza suffering

The UN chief has said Israel's blockade of Gaza is causing "unacceptable suffering," during a Middle East visit to reinvigorate the peace process.

Ban Ki-moon told Gazans that "we stand with you" as he visited an area damaged by Israel's offensive 14 months ago.

His visit to the region comes amid tension over Israel's plans to build more settlements in East Jerusalem.

Rebuilding is difficult due to a lack of building materials during the three-year blockade.

Israel imposed a tightened blockade after the Islamist Hamas movement seized power in June 2007.

Speaking in Gaza, Mr Ban said families were living under "unacceptable, unsustainable conditions".

Mr Ban said it was "distressing" for him to see damage to housing remaining, with no reconstruction possible under the blockade.

The blockade has prevented the UN from completing housing projects, but Mr Ban pledged to continue providing aid to Gazans,

"My message to people of Gaza is this: the United Nations will stand with you through this ordeal," he said.

'Path of non-violence'

Among a list of criticisms of Israel's policy, Mr Ban said the blockade was counter-productive as it prevented legitimate commerce and encouraged smuggling and extremism.

Mr Ban urged all Gazans to "choose the path of non-violence, Palestinian unity and international legitimacy".

He also called for a prisoner exchange involving Palestinian prisoners and Israeli soldier Gilat Shilad who was captured by militants in 2006.

His two-day visit is aimed at restarting the peace process, and comes just ahead of a visit by US special representative George Mitchell on Sunday to try to get indirect talks going between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The international community last week strongly condemned Israel's announcement of planning permission for 1,600 new homes in East Jerusalem, occupied by Israel since 1967.

Ahead of Sunday's Israeli cabinet meeting, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said settlement building would continue.

"The policy of construction in Jerusalem is the same as in Tel Aviv.

"We will continue to build in Jerusalem as we have done for 42 years," he said
, according to AFP news agency.

Clashes

Mr Netanyahu is to travel to Washington on Sunday, where he is expected to meet Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and possibly President Barack Obama.

Meanwhile, violence in the West Bank continued on Saturday, with a Palestinian teenager shot dead and another badly hurt in clashes with Israeli troops near the city of Nablus, Palestinian medical officials said.

The Israeli military says its forces were responding to what it called a "violent riot" by Palestinian youths who were throwing stones at Israeli settlers, the BBC's West Bank correspondent Jon Donnison reports.

But it says no live bullets were fired, only tear gas and rubber bullets.​
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8578611.stm

Netanyahu said settlement building would continue.

"The policy of construction in Jerusalem is the same as in Tel Aviv.

"We will continue to build in Jerusalem as we have done for 42 years," he said
in direct contravention of International Law, as they have been doing for 42 years, building on occupied land. This is absolutely NOT "the same as in Tel Aviv".

Strange also that a Palestinian was shot dead without live ammunition being used...

Stranger still that Palestinian youths should riot against Israeli occupiers stealing their country. How dare they?

It is good to see strong words at least coming from the UN. It is outrageous that the Palestinians are not even able to rebuild their homes using materials the UN itself cannot get through the Israeli blockade. The US simply has to stop supporting these war criminals. There are no longer any excuses, if there ever were. Gaza is nothing but a huge concentration camp, and the Occupied West Bank is not much better.
 

jb1280

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Jan 13, 2009
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I agree that the United States needs to apply sufficient pressure on Israel to correct the reprehensible situation in Gaza.

That said, do you agree with with Ban that Gazans should "choose the path of non-violence, Palestinian unity and international legitimacy" or do you continue to believe that any act of violence is justified?
 

Desertrat

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Jul 4, 2003
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"Occupied land"? I luvvit. For forty-five years the UN accepted the Russian occupation, control and governance of part of Germany and of the other Iron Curtain countries.

Israel, after being attacked without provocation or warning, knocked the dog-poop out of the attackers and took control of buffer territory as a protection against further stupid invasions.

So after working with such evil creatures as Arafat and others, in spite of the ongoing calls for genocide of all Jews in Israel, to no avail, they're continuing on with protective measures and with the problems of an expanding population.

Israel was created by UN vote in 1948. Yet it was not until the 1990s that the Charter of the PLO was amended to remove the paragraph which called for eradication of Jews from Israel. Nice guys, hun? Truily humanitarian leadership--not. Slimebags.

Arabs have been doing terrorism against Israel now for some 62 years, yet those folks sucked in by pro-Arab propaganda would have the victims seen as the perps.

Dr. Goebbels has got to be laughing his butt off.
 

skunk

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That said, do you agree with with Ban that Gazans should "choose the path of non-violence, Palestinian unity and international legitimacy" or do you continue to believe that any act of violence is justified?
The only real "victory" they could win would be through non-violent mass protest, but (a) they do not have a Gandhi figure (yet), and (b) they would have to be prepared for significant losses. The fraudulent competition between religious fictions certainly does not help any understanding.
 

remmy

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Jul 1, 2007
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The only real "victory" they could win would be through non-violent mass protest, but (a) they do not have a Gandhi figure (yet), and (b) they would have to be prepared for significant losses. The fraudulent competition between religious fictions certainly does not help any understanding.
The Israel government has such good understanding of media and how to control it, as well as restricting access to the occupied territories that a mass peaceful protest would never get the recognition it deserved, or even be reported at all.
 

skunk

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Israel, after being attacked without provocation or warning, knocked the dog-poop out of the attackers and took control of buffer territory as a protection against further stupid invasions.
You've really swallowed that one hook, line and sinker, haven't you?

they're continuing on with protective measures and with the problems of an expanding population.
Ah, lebensraum, is it? Gotcha. Where on earth did they learn about that? And concentration camps? Somebody must have been paying attention in their history classes.

Israel was created by UN vote in 1948.
We all make mistakes. No need to accept the awful consequences in perpetuity.

Arabs have been doing terrorism against Israel now for some 62 years, yet those folks sucked in by pro-Arab propaganda would have the victims seen as the perps.
The terrorism has been a two way street. Israel has been shafting the Palestinians for 62 years, and Deir Yassin was no tea party. Israel is indeed perpetrating the most horrendous crimes against humanity in both Gaza and the Occupied Territories.

Dr. Goebbels has got to be laughing his butt off.
Indeed. He taught them well.
 

skunk

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The Israel government has such good understanding of media and how to control it, as well as restricting access to the occupied territories that a mass peaceful protest would never get the recognition it deserved, or even be reported at all.
Oh, I think it would. Gandhi's followers suffered horrendous losses, but the press took note, and that's what swung it in the end. You can't keep something like that quiet. It only needs one reporter to get through.
 

Queso

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Mar 4, 2006
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Israel was created by UN vote in 1948.
Both Israel and Palestine were created by UN vote in 1947. However, let's look at the boundaries as voted on by the UN members shall we?



These bear absolutely no relation to the current "accepted borders" nor the even-tinier boundaries controlled by the Palestinian Authority, and yet from the map below we can see how Israel continues to purloin territory from the West Bank, this time by walling it in.



And they wonder why Hamas are firing rockets at them? :rolleyes:
 

Desertrat

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skunk, one of my fondest memories from any television viewing, ever, was a live telecast from the UN after the Israelis kicked the Arabs' butts in the '67 war. The Arabs were whining about the unfairness of it all; after all, they had merely peacefully gone touristing. Abba Eban drew himself up to his full five-foot-not-much and declaimed, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

You know how you can tell that it's an Arab tank? It has one speed forward, and three in reverse. (Transmissions contracted for by the Monty Python Runaway, Runaway works.)

Queso, that map is irrelevant. "To the victor belong the spoils" took care of it. No different from any other war, except that the Israelis didn't keep all that they could have. After all, they were invaded; they won. Had they wanted, they could have rolled to Damascus and Cairo; Amman, as well.

Then the doofus Arabs tried again in 1973, thereby proving that they are extremely slow learners. These recent 47 years show that they haven't really improved with age.

The Israelis know full well that Arab leadership policy is that the only peace possible is the peace of the grave, and they just really don't want that. "Masada shall not fall again" has meaning.

Netanyahu's statement still holds true: "If the Arabs lay down their guns, there will be no more killing. If the Jews lay down their guns, there will be no more Israel."
 

skunk

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Then the doofus Arabs tried again in 1973, thereby proving that they are extremely slow learners. These recent 47 years show that they haven't really improved with age.

The Israelis know full well that Arab leadership policy is that the only peace possible is the peace of the grave, and they just really don't want that.
"The Arabs"? All of them? Some of them are Samaritans. Some of them are Christian. Some of them are Orthodox. Some of them are Druze. Some of them are Animist. Many of them are Jewish. Judaism is not a racial distinction, it's just another religion. This kind of foolish generalisation helps nobody.

Netanyahu's statement still holds true: "If the Arabs lay down their guns, there will be no more killing. If the Jews lay down their guns, there will be no more Israel."
Only because the Israeli state already occupies the West Bank territories and has a stranglehold on Gaza. If the Palestinians capitulated, why would the Israeli state want to kill them?
 

Mac'nCheese

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I wonder what all the pro-Israeli people would think if the UN decided to give part of the USA away to some other people? Would they just comply and leave or would they fight for their homes that they spent a life-time building? That's exactly what happened with Israel. The UN leaders felt so guilty over doing nothing about the Holocaust for so long (and don't tell me about the Allies beating the Nazis, we knew for years about the camps and let it happen); they figured the best thing to do was to make a Jewish homeland. When the Jewish leaders rejected the first plan: part of Africa, the UN kicked the Palestinians out of their homes (literally) and gave the land and property to Jewish people. And we are surprised that those kicked off have been trying to get their land back ever since???? This isn't a thousand year old fight... this happened just 70 years ago. Those who lost everything are still alive; would you just let something like that happen to your family? And before you label me as some Jew-hating nut.... I am Jewish. I just what I see as an increasingly rare ability to see things from both sides of view.... Grew up hating the PLO and being pro-Israel until I learned to think for myself. No one in their right mind can say what Happened to the Palestinians was fair and just.
 

Macky-Mac

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May 18, 2004
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The only real "victory" they could win would be through non-violent mass protest, but (a) they do not have a Gandhi figure (yet), and (b) they would have to be prepared for significant losses.....
you could add that the Palestinians strategy of violence has been a miserable failure and simply provides an easy excuse to israel for its policies. How often do we see people pointing to Palestinian rockets and suicide bombers as justification for any and whatever Israel does? The Palestinians have to stop getting suckered by every provocation.

Unfortunately, the strategy of violence also plays an important role in the internal Palestinian power struggle between Fatah and Hamas. Sometimes it seems that the Palestinians are more focused on fighting each other instead of Israel
 

184550

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May 8, 2008
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I wonder what all the pro-Israeli people would think if the UN decided to give part of the USA away to some other people? Would they just comply and leave or would they fight for their homes that they spent a life-time building?
Poor example. Name one group of people that have a historical claim to US territory and that have been kicked out of the US with no chance to integrate or otherwise reside in the US.

That's exactly what happened with Israel. The UN leaders felt so guilty over doing nothing about the Holocaust for so long (and don't tell me about the Allies beating the Nazis, we knew for years about the camps and let it happen); they figured the best thing to do was to make a Jewish homeland.
The UN had nothing to do with creating Israel, except its legal creation. They, the Jews, had been immigrating back to what is now Israel since the late 1880s and legally purchasing tracts of land from Arab landowners.

When the Jewish leaders rejected the first plan: part of Africa, the UN kicked the Palestinians out of their homes (literally) and gave the land and property to Jewish people.
Africa was only considered a possibility early on in the Zionism movement on the basis that they wanted to be somewhere other than Europe where they were victims to pogroms and general anitsemitism. The UN had nothing to do with kicking the Arabs out of their homes. The Israelis did that upon their victory in the 1948 War of Independence.

And before you label me as some Jew-hating nut.... I am Jewish. I just what I see as an increasingly rare ability to see things from both sides of view.... Grew up hating the PLO and being pro-Israel until I learned to think for myself. No one in their right mind can say what Happened to the Palestinians was fair and just.
It would serve you well to know your own history better.
 

Mac'nCheese

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Poor example. Name one group of people that have a historical claim to US territory and that have been kicked out of the US with no chance to integrate or otherwise reside in the US.
It wasn't an example, it was a hypothetical analogy.



The UN had nothing to do with creating Israel, except its legal creation.
Nothing to do BUT its legal creation. That's a HUGE but.


Africa was only considered a possibility early on in the Zionism movement on the basis that they wanted to be somewhere other than Europe where they were victims to pogroms and general anitsemitism. The UN had nothing to do with kicking the Arabs out of their homes. The Israelis did that upon their victory in the 1948 War of Independence.
SO... does that make it right?



It would serve you well to know your own history better.

Nothing you wrote proved I didn't know my history.
 

skunk

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you could add that the Palestinians strategy of violence has been a miserable failure and simply provides an easy excuse to israel for its policies.
It is not very often that a Gandhi figure comes along. The Indians had to wait a hundred years.
Sometimes it seems that the Palestinians are more focused on fighting each other instead of Israel
That has been US/Israeli policy. "Divide and Rule". It's not exactly a new thing.

The Israelis did that upon their victory in the 1948 War of Independence.
Incorrect:
The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 120 fighters from the Irgun and Lehi Zionist paramilitary groups attacked Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, a Palestinian-Arab village of roughly 600 people.[1] The invasion occurred as Jewish militia sought to relieve the blockade of Jerusalem during the civil war that preceded the end of British rule in Palestine.​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
It would serve you well to know your own history better.
Hoist by your own petard, it would seem.​
 

Jason Beck

macrumors 68000
Oct 19, 2009
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I think everyone in the Middle East should look at this page.
Look at it for a good few hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

Even then I doubt that would do any good. I think that fighting like that
is fruitless and will only bring about pain and angst in the long run.
Make do with what you have for the moment. Make positive moves to
reinforce relations, which in turn will build a better future.

Mistakes have been made, by both sides even. That goes without
saying. The needless killing however needs to stop. Both of their
Gods would want it to. Stop killing and start working for a future, to
coexist next to each other. Then, maybe someday unification could be
a possibility. It might take a hundred, two hundred years, but if positive
steps are made now then who knows?

It will however build something positive. Free travel, and free worship
is not out of the question decades after peace talks. It might take a
generation or two to die off for the hate to start to heal, but it would be
worth it.

Suicide bombing is stupid. Fighting over a piece of land is stupid. Live
with your brother, not fight him.

Islam:

That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.”


Christianity:

"Do to no one what you yourself dislike."


So if you want peace, and you dislike hurting other people.. then isn't
there something wrong with how this ages old power struggle is being
handled?

I would also like to add that I have experienced hate, experienced loss. My
sister was killed by a drunk driver with 4 prior DUI charges and was arrested
with 10 open containers in his vehicle. Do I hate him? No. I wish the best
for him. I hope that he did the 5 years that he got and made something
of it.
 

Mac'nCheese

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Hypotheticals have no place in a discussion about history.

Again, you just keep missing my point. The hypothetical question was not about history, per se. It was about how people view the world now. Its about questioning a people's right to fight for their land. That is not history, that is ongoing to this very day.



Well, it makes you wrong.
Wrong about what? That it is a crime to throw people out of their homes and take over their land? Do you really think that is right?
 

skunk

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It is my understanding that StevenSteven is talking about this.
From that piece, it quite plainly says
between 650,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes by Yishuv or Israeli forces, during the creation of the state of Israel and the civil war that preceded it.
You quite plainly claimed that it was "upon their victory".