A Matter of Perspective

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Mar 21, 2010.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8578611.stm

    in direct contravention of International Law, as they have been doing for 42 years, building on occupied land. This is absolutely NOT "the same as in Tel Aviv".

    Strange also that a Palestinian was shot dead without live ammunition being used...

    Stranger still that Palestinian youths should riot against Israeli occupiers stealing their country. How dare they?

    It is good to see strong words at least coming from the UN. It is outrageous that the Palestinians are not even able to rebuild their homes using materials the UN itself cannot get through the Israeli blockade. The US simply has to stop supporting these war criminals. There are no longer any excuses, if there ever were. Gaza is nothing but a huge concentration camp, and the Occupied West Bank is not much better.
     
  2. jb1280 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    #2
    I agree that the United States needs to apply sufficient pressure on Israel to correct the reprehensible situation in Gaza.

    That said, do you agree with with Ban that Gazans should "choose the path of non-violence, Palestinian unity and international legitimacy" or do you continue to believe that any act of violence is justified?
     
  3. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #3
    "Occupied land"? I luvvit. For forty-five years the UN accepted the Russian occupation, control and governance of part of Germany and of the other Iron Curtain countries.

    Israel, after being attacked without provocation or warning, knocked the dog-poop out of the attackers and took control of buffer territory as a protection against further stupid invasions.

    So after working with such evil creatures as Arafat and others, in spite of the ongoing calls for genocide of all Jews in Israel, to no avail, they're continuing on with protective measures and with the problems of an expanding population.

    Israel was created by UN vote in 1948. Yet it was not until the 1990s that the Charter of the PLO was amended to remove the paragraph which called for eradication of Jews from Israel. Nice guys, hun? Truily humanitarian leadership--not. Slimebags.

    Arabs have been doing terrorism against Israel now for some 62 years, yet those folks sucked in by pro-Arab propaganda would have the victims seen as the perps.

    Dr. Goebbels has got to be laughing his butt off.
     
  4. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #4
    The only real "victory" they could win would be through non-violent mass protest, but (a) they do not have a Gandhi figure (yet), and (b) they would have to be prepared for significant losses. The fraudulent competition between religious fictions certainly does not help any understanding.
     
  5. remmy macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    #5
    The Israel government has such good understanding of media and how to control it, as well as restricting access to the occupied territories that a mass peaceful protest would never get the recognition it deserved, or even be reported at all.
     
  6. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #6
    You've really swallowed that one hook, line and sinker, haven't you?

    Ah, lebensraum, is it? Gotcha. Where on earth did they learn about that? And concentration camps? Somebody must have been paying attention in their history classes.

    We all make mistakes. No need to accept the awful consequences in perpetuity.

    The terrorism has been a two way street. Israel has been shafting the Palestinians for 62 years, and Deir Yassin was no tea party. Israel is indeed perpetrating the most horrendous crimes against humanity in both Gaza and the Occupied Territories.

    Indeed. He taught them well.
     
  7. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #7
    Oh, I think it would. Gandhi's followers suffered horrendous losses, but the press took note, and that's what swung it in the end. You can't keep something like that quiet. It only needs one reporter to get through.
     
  8. flopticalcube macrumors G4

    flopticalcube

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Location:
    In the velcro closure of America's Hat
    #8
    Livni is really the only hope for movement forward at this point.
     
  9. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #9
    Unless she gets arrested in the UK first, of course...
     
  10. Queso macrumors G4

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    #10
    Both Israel and Palestine were created by UN vote in 1947. However, let's look at the boundaries as voted on by the UN members shall we?

    [​IMG]

    These bear absolutely no relation to the current "accepted borders" nor the even-tinier boundaries controlled by the Palestinian Authority, and yet from the map below we can see how Israel continues to purloin territory from the West Bank, this time by walling it in.

    [​IMG]

    And they wonder why Hamas are firing rockets at them? :rolleyes:
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #11
    skunk, one of my fondest memories from any television viewing, ever, was a live telecast from the UN after the Israelis kicked the Arabs' butts in the '67 war. The Arabs were whining about the unfairness of it all; after all, they had merely peacefully gone touristing. Abba Eban drew himself up to his full five-foot-not-much and declaimed, "There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

    You know how you can tell that it's an Arab tank? It has one speed forward, and three in reverse. (Transmissions contracted for by the Monty Python Runaway, Runaway works.)

    Queso, that map is irrelevant. "To the victor belong the spoils" took care of it. No different from any other war, except that the Israelis didn't keep all that they could have. After all, they were invaded; they won. Had they wanted, they could have rolled to Damascus and Cairo; Amman, as well.

    Then the doofus Arabs tried again in 1973, thereby proving that they are extremely slow learners. These recent 47 years show that they haven't really improved with age.

    The Israelis know full well that Arab leadership policy is that the only peace possible is the peace of the grave, and they just really don't want that. "Masada shall not fall again" has meaning.

    Netanyahu's statement still holds true: "If the Arabs lay down their guns, there will be no more killing. If the Jews lay down their guns, there will be no more Israel."
     
  12. Burnsey macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Location:
    Canada
    #12
    These people are criminals, forget being criticized, they should be on trial.
     
  13. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #13
    "The Arabs"? All of them? Some of them are Samaritans. Some of them are Christian. Some of them are Orthodox. Some of them are Druze. Some of them are Animist. Many of them are Jewish. Judaism is not a racial distinction, it's just another religion. This kind of foolish generalisation helps nobody.

    Only because the Israeli state already occupies the West Bank territories and has a stranglehold on Gaza. If the Palestinians capitulated, why would the Israeli state want to kill them?
     
  14. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #14
    I wonder what all the pro-Israeli people would think if the UN decided to give part of the USA away to some other people? Would they just comply and leave or would they fight for their homes that they spent a life-time building? That's exactly what happened with Israel. The UN leaders felt so guilty over doing nothing about the Holocaust for so long (and don't tell me about the Allies beating the Nazis, we knew for years about the camps and let it happen); they figured the best thing to do was to make a Jewish homeland. When the Jewish leaders rejected the first plan: part of Africa, the UN kicked the Palestinians out of their homes (literally) and gave the land and property to Jewish people. And we are surprised that those kicked off have been trying to get their land back ever since???? This isn't a thousand year old fight... this happened just 70 years ago. Those who lost everything are still alive; would you just let something like that happen to your family? And before you label me as some Jew-hating nut.... I am Jewish. I just what I see as an increasingly rare ability to see things from both sides of view.... Grew up hating the PLO and being pro-Israel until I learned to think for myself. No one in their right mind can say what Happened to the Palestinians was fair and just.
     
  15. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
  16. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    #16
    you could add that the Palestinians strategy of violence has been a miserable failure and simply provides an easy excuse to israel for its policies. How often do we see people pointing to Palestinian rockets and suicide bombers as justification for any and whatever Israel does? The Palestinians have to stop getting suckered by every provocation.

    Unfortunately, the strategy of violence also plays an important role in the internal Palestinian power struggle between Fatah and Hamas. Sometimes it seems that the Palestinians are more focused on fighting each other instead of Israel
     
  17. 184550 Guest

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    #17
    Poor example. Name one group of people that have a historical claim to US territory and that have been kicked out of the US with no chance to integrate or otherwise reside in the US.

    The UN had nothing to do with creating Israel, except its legal creation. They, the Jews, had been immigrating back to what is now Israel since the late 1880s and legally purchasing tracts of land from Arab landowners.

    Africa was only considered a possibility early on in the Zionism movement on the basis that they wanted to be somewhere other than Europe where they were victims to pogroms and general anitsemitism. The UN had nothing to do with kicking the Arabs out of their homes. The Israelis did that upon their victory in the 1948 War of Independence.

    It would serve you well to know your own history better.
     
  18. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #18
    It wasn't an example, it was a hypothetical analogy.



    Nothing to do BUT its legal creation. That's a HUGE but.


    SO... does that make it right?




    Nothing you wrote proved I didn't know my history.
     
  19. 184550 Guest

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    #19
    Hypotheticals have no place in a discussion about history.


    Well, it makes you wrong.
     
  20. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #20
    It is not very often that a Gandhi figure comes along. The Indians had to wait a hundred years.
    That has been US/Israeli policy. "Divide and Rule". It's not exactly a new thing.

    Incorrect:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
    Hoist by your own petard, it would seem.​
     
  21. Jason Beck macrumors 68000

    Jason Beck

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Location:
    Cedar City, Utah
    #21
    I think everyone in the Middle East should look at this page.
    Look at it for a good few hours.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule

    Even then I doubt that would do any good. I think that fighting like that
    is fruitless and will only bring about pain and angst in the long run.
    Make do with what you have for the moment. Make positive moves to
    reinforce relations, which in turn will build a better future.

    Mistakes have been made, by both sides even. That goes without
    saying. The needless killing however needs to stop. Both of their
    Gods would want it to. Stop killing and start working for a future, to
    coexist next to each other. Then, maybe someday unification could be
    a possibility. It might take a hundred, two hundred years, but if positive
    steps are made now then who knows?

    It will however build something positive. Free travel, and free worship
    is not out of the question decades after peace talks. It might take a
    generation or two to die off for the hate to start to heal, but it would be
    worth it.

    Suicide bombing is stupid. Fighting over a piece of land is stupid. Live
    with your brother, not fight him.

    Islam:

    That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.”


    Christianity:

    "Do to no one what you yourself dislike."


    So if you want peace, and you dislike hurting other people.. then isn't
    there something wrong with how this ages old power struggle is being
    handled?

    I would also like to add that I have experienced hate, experienced loss. My
    sister was killed by a drunk driver with 4 prior DUI charges and was arrested
    with 10 open containers in his vehicle. Do I hate him? No. I wish the best
    for him. I hope that he did the 5 years that he got and made something
    of it.
     
  22. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #22

    Again, you just keep missing my point. The hypothetical question was not about history, per se. It was about how people view the world now. Its about questioning a people's right to fight for their land. That is not history, that is ongoing to this very day.



    Wrong about what? That it is a crime to throw people out of their homes and take over their land? Do you really think that is right?
     
  23. 184550 Guest

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    #23
  24. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    #24
    http://forums.macrumors.com/misc.php?do=bbcode
     
  25. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #25
    From that piece, it quite plainly says
    You quite plainly claimed that it was "upon their victory".
     

Share This Page