A Nullification of the Constitution

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
    Looking for thoughts from the community. Personally, for me, it's nice to see states stick up for the rights provided to them by the constitution and push back the Federal government when it attempts to grasp more control than it was intended to have according to the founders.

    It's unfortunate that people discuss the 'fairness doctrine' (destruction of freedom of the press), the NAFTA superhighway (sovereignty anyone?), without even thinking of these things... and we have freaking Sen. Chris Dodd standing up and saying that we need "mandatory customer service for all high school students" (slavery again?).

    Anyway, take a read for yourself:

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2698-Char...the-Constitution-A-legislator-finally-gets-it

     
  2. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #2
    Libertarianism is dead. Although I expect a lot more of such right wing twaddle in the months ahead.
     
  3. jonbravo77 macrumors 6502a

    jonbravo77

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    #3
    I don't know. It seems that this stuff always gets brought up when a Democrat is in office. But when a republican gets into office they can do whatever they want ie: The Patriot Act. Let's get rid of that act before we start to talk about some of the other things that our government is doing..
     
  4. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #4
    Thank you. Let's get rid of the Patriot Act first. Then we can talk about other things.
     
  5. Counterfit macrumors G3

    Counterfit

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    #5
    Jury duty should be in there too. If you aren't excused, most states/counties/etc. will have a bench warrant issued for your arrest.
    Treaties have ALWAYS superseded national and local law.
     
  6. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #6
    Libertarianism can be appealing in theory. Reality is another matter. Look what's happened with deregulation. Corporate greed run rampant. Too bad that human beings require so many rules and regulations.
     
  7. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #7
    Sounds interesting. As a practical matter, how exactly would they secede? Would they direct employers in the state to stop collecting federal and payroll taxes? And for that matter, wouldn't seceding make them a risky place to do business anyway? How many corporations would or could continue to do business there? There'd be years of wrangling that would surely hurt the economy.

    Also, some of those nullification acts seems a little off. As mentioned above, number 4 is already covered by the Constitution itself. Number 3 seems like an overreaction to the volunteer program Obama wants to promote that would trade work for college money - essentially a paid job.

    I find 5 interesting and think they'll find it harder to enforce than they believe it will be, with regards to religion. And why "further" limitations on speech and press? What limitations are they currently okay with?

    And finally number 6 - I don't think individual citizens need weapons that have the potential to kill hundreds of people. Iraq has showed us quite well that a creative and driven person can be quite effective against a well equipped army with nothing more than an explosive, some cell phones, a garage door opener and his own will.
     
  8. szark macrumors 68030

    szark

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    #8
    Cool. Now I can go out and order that F-22 that I've always wanted. :)
     
  9. ppc750fx macrumors 65816

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    #9
    People love to point to deregulation as an example of the "failure" of the free market -- but all the high profile examples that they pick inevitably serve as far better examples of why governments shouldn't be involved in the market than the reverse.

    What companies would you pick as an example of "what's happened with deregulation"?
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #10
    Any of the financial companies that have failed in the past year would be a good place to start. Bernie Madoff, Enron, Worldcom......

    Anytime a company is allowed to "voluntarily" list its faults, the result will be disastrous. Libertarianism obviously doesn't work. Neither does the form of Communism as practiced by the USSR and US Capitalism has numerous examples over the last 150 years of its always failing in the end.

    Regulation is something that needs to be revisited periodically on a non-partisan basis. Putting it in the control of either party in the US will ultimately lead to the current repression we're currently experiencing.
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #11
    Regulations which work toward a level playing field among competing interests, such as with EPA, work fairly well. Regulations which are taken by people to function as replacements for due diligence give us Madoffs. "Caveat emptor" will forever be operative.

    The larger problem for libertarianism is that it cannot function if the great majority of a society does not take personal responsibility for the consequences of decisions and actions. IOW, less chance than a snowball in Hell, in the U.S. The copout, "It's society's fault," militates against libertarianism.

    All that Resolution 6 is doing is reminding folks that the 9th and 10th amendments do exist, for all that administrations and Congress have largely ignored them for decades. Ignoring them comes easily and naturally to Statists...

    'Rat
     
  12. pdham macrumors member

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    #12
    Your idea of a libertarian utopia where everyone "takes personal responsibility for the consequences of decisions and actions" could only ever exist if there was an equal playing field and starting point.... there is not.
     
  13. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #13
    No, actually, it's not.



    Actually, those among us who are true constitutionalists and really care about small government, personal rights, private property, etc. have been saying it for years. We fought it when the Republicans and Democrats (including Barack Obama) voted to support it. We fought it then, we fight it now. I will not disagree that many Republicans however seem to be recently 'discovering' their small government roots... it's unfortunate that they often times lose them completely when in power.



    I agree. Let's get rid of the Patriot Act. But let's not let that keep us from promoting freedom, liberty, small government, and citizens' rights in all aspects of the game. It's all important, RIGHT NOW. We won't WAIT for the Patriot Act to be removed.



    The problem is that socialistic programs are almost impossible to remove once in place. The reason the founders were so explicit with their instructions and made it clear that liberty and personal responsibility were so important was to stop this train from ever leaving the station. Once people become dependent on government, they cling to it as hard as they can... and the slippery slope towards socialism and fascism begins.

    Things have gotten bad... heck, now 40% of the population doesn't even pay income tax. People don't even save for their own retirement any more because they think the government has their back... little do they know that instead of conservative savings and investment, the government is actually participating (talking about social security here) in the world's largest pyramid scheme where current generations' retirements will attempt to be funded by the future working class. The system is unsustainable, and unfortunately will eventually collapse under it's own weight.

    Big government statists try to do things for all the right reasons, but what they don't realize is that they do far more damage in the long term than they benefit in the short term. (even though this is very well documented historically and can be learned about by studying Austrian economics (the group who PREDICTED this downturn)) They think they're saving people, but they're really bankrupting them. Look at our debt people... well over 10 Trillion now. It's not difficult to figure out, people. Very similar to how BO is trying to keep the bubble from popping right now. They're trying to patch holes which can't be patched only to find out that their patches will help the bubble to grow and grow further until it pops and does even more damage than it would have if given the change to auto-correct right now.



    What would you suggest to equal the playing field? Socialism? Communism? Listen, my wife came from some of the poorest conditions possible growing up. She didn't maybe have the best family atmosphere... but you know what, she took it upon herself to succeed and excel. To give it her all in school and in life. And she succeeded because of it. When she graduated from High School, she could have done anything she wanted to... not because some governmental affirmative action plan or the pity police... but because she earned it. Every child in the country has the opportunity to succeed. Every child has an opportunity to grow beyond their upbringing and write their own life story.

    Too often kids make the mistake of playing the blame game and complaining about how hard it is. Nothing in life comes easy, nothing in life comes without effort (it shouldn't anyway), and this is the hard truth they would benefit from learning.
     
  14. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #14
    Real Libertarianism died a very long time ago. So much so that Libertarianism in American doesn't even mean Libertarianism.


    Putting Socialism and fascism in the same sentence like that is pretty disgusting.

    Whilst I don't agree with that, one thing is for certain: Not every child has an equal chance to succeed.

    Again, I disagree.

    For some it comes very easy. For some it's impossible.


    Sorry if this post is disjointed. I've only just entered the thread and haven't caught up.
     
  15. ppc750fx macrumors 65816

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    #15
    And? That's what's supposed to happen. If you run a company poorly, it fails. That's not a failing of the free market -- it's the correct operation of the free market.

    The problem comes when the government gets involved -- the recent Wall Street crisis wouldn't be nearly as big of a sore point if the government didn't jump in and give the better part of a trillion dollars to companies that had proven they were incapable of managing themselves. Worldcom and Enron received untold millions (if not billions) in government subsidies, grants, and tax breaks.

    Subsidizing failure (as the US govt. is wont to do) doesn't fix the problems caused by corporate mismanagement -- it exacerbates them.
     
  16. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #16
    Would you have preferred that they did nothing in this situation? Would you have been happy with the consequences of doing nothing?
     
  17. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #17
    YES. I would. It's called a 'market correction', 'es. They are a necessary and healthy part of the free market economy.

    If only it were that simple though. Unfortunately, the biggest reason for this downturn isn't natural by any stretch of the imagination... due to the government's manipulation of the interest rate and pressure put on mortgage organizations all designed to increase home ownership beyond natural free market progression, housing and ownership expanded faster than it should have with people getting houses that had no right doing so. But they kept on trucking with the promise of ever-increasing prices and incredibly low interest rates (which any economist can tell you is impossible to maintain).

    When will people learn... when the government tries to manipulate the system and make things happen that aren't natural, bad things happen. Yes, down turns happen in regular markets, but like I said... they are best cured by letting the price fall and get back down to a healthy level.

    Say it with me... MARKET CORRECTION. There are too many houses on the market right now. The market needs to auto-correct. All BO's policies are doing is patching the bubble and allowing it to grow further before it can't be patched any more and pops destroying even more profit, and even more families. (Meanwhile putting us even further into egregious debt to the tune of TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS of dollars, and expanding socialistic programs which reward the stupid and careless (mortgage bailout, auto bailout, bank bailout))

    The free market, capitalism, and property rights have created more wealth than any other system in history. When implemented correctly, prosperity is rampant. When manipulated with fiat money and unconstitutional federal banking systems by a ignorant statist government, it can be deadly.
     
  18. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #18
    Well, it's big of you to play fast and lose with other people's lives.

    Thanks. I don't know much when it comes to these matters. :rolleyes:

    If only I had some education in the relevant area...

    Well, I got this far before I decided I didn't need to be patronized any longer, especially by you.


    ------------------

    For others that have any actual interest in hearing what a world class intellectual has to say about Libertarianism in the USA, have a listen to Chomsky.
     
  19. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #19
    On the contrary, I think it's YOU who are living fast and loose with other people's lives. Like I said, the bailouts do nothing but patch holes and allow the bubbles to continue to grow. These policies will do nothing but extend the problem, increase the size and scope of the issue, and then bring even more people down with it when it does inevitably burst.

    I'm looking out for what's best for everyone in the long run, BO's policies are looking out for those who don't want to experience a bit of hurt now. Those who can't be responsible for their actions and who put us all in risk when they aren't fiscally responsible.

    Letting the problem correct now would ensure that LESS people are hurt in the long run and that FEWER people make the same mistakes. It would guarantee a STRONGER market in the future and would build far more prosperity than BO's Robin Hood tactics.



    It's too bad, if you would have kept reading you could have heard me discuss the policies which are putting us even further into egregious debt to the tune of TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS of dollars, and expanding socialistic programs which reward the stupid and careless. (mortgage bailout, auto bailout, bank bailout)

    BTW, 'es. I'm talking about ideas here. Not nomenclature ornames. I don't care if Chomsky thinks it should be called classical liberalism or whatever else... we're talking about ideas and ideals, philosophies and core beliefs. You're simply trying to lower the quality of the debate by name calling.
     
  20. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #20
    Care to back that up? Considering that you don't know my opinion on this matter it is entirely presumptuous.
     
  21. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    Oct 8, 2008
    #21
    What do think about this:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." —Bill of Rights

    Shall we remove the tax-exempt status for religious organizations?
     
  22. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #22
    Religious organizations are supposed to be not-for-profit. We don't tax not-for-profit organizations. Should we?
     
  23. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #23
    FYI for anyone who is interested: One distinction between religious and non-religious. Non-church non-profits that get tax exemptions must annually file a detailed 990 statement. This is waived for churches. So non-church non-profits are subject to IRS audit and public scrutiny.
     
  24. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #24
    A justification for that might be that non-profits with profit would use this money to act more like traditional enterprise. With religious organizations, it would be understood anything extra should go towards a charitable purpose, although I know this is not always the case.

    For instance, I know that the Mormon church holds many for-profit businesses, and are also directly involved with matters of legislation. I think these would be too egregious to maintain their status.
     
  25. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #25
    Ignoring that anecdotal evidence is itself a logical fallacy, the idea of a "self-made man" is such a myth that it's presentation here makes me want to chortle mightily. But there might be kids reading this.

    Take sports as a good example of something that's supposed to be entirely merit-based, where those who work hard and train succeed, and those who don't, don't. Compare the birth dates of professional players and the cut-off dates for making the team. You'll find an absolutely disproportionate number of people born within a particular time-frame because the cut-off date allowed them to be the oldest players at a time when a difference of six months of age made the difference between being runty and uncoordinated and strong and fast. For the sake of this example the cut-off date is arbitrary, and was certainly not established to tilt the playing field squarely in the direction of the older players, but that is in fact the impact it has had.

    There's no such thing as a self-made man because opportunities simply don't exist in a vacuum. You can't just "take it upon yourself" to "succeed", you succeed when you are lucky or privileged enough to be in a position to access those opportunities. Opportunities may not be intentionally safeguarded for the lucky and privileged, and no malice may be intended nor consequences even understood or considered, but it still remains an inescapable fact that they will be inaccessible to many for no fault of their own. Social mobility may have been much more merit based during the 1850s, But that's not the case anymore, and there's no use pretending otherwise. Trying to harken back to the good old days of the frontier is all well and good — if you want dysentery. Otherwise, watching the situation closely and making well-informed attempts to level the playing field is not only necessary, but is in the best interests of every single member of society.
     

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