"A Remarkably Awful Student-Debt Plan"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by thermodynamic, Sep 28, 2016.

  1. thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
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    USA
    #1
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/437547/hillary-clinton-student-loan-plan-terrible-mess

    A couple excerpts from a source I'm on the fence about:

    and

    Article has much more.

    Americans could borrow no money but then have no degree and companies seem to like degrees. That means, in the law of supply and demand, colleges will jack up rates - they used to be nearly 1120% less in 1978 compared to today. It does not matter who backs the loans, whether it's government or a bank. Since it's clear that colleges have indeed diluted course quality, since even Tim Cook whines about the quality of the educated, perhaps a solution is to make colleges pay back the money since most students went back to college in good faith since the great recessions, of which and before which they were not rolling in money either due to the economy and prevailing wages combined with raw costs.

    The article discusses the pros and cons of "free" education, but the article itself seems to be lacking detail on what led to today's mess and how to fix it.

    The article isn't perfect, but what could the writer of that article say is a better solution than the one Mrs. Clinton has put out? Instead of going into ******** tangents such as health insurance reform/Obamacare/Romneycare, which are not relevant to college costs.

    Oh, you will find an amusing part of which the author admits the economic system is perverse... but it's more perverse to claim taxpayers are paying for it because, no, they are not. In paying back the loans, the loan takers are. If they go into default, the lump just doesn't magically disappear, so the claim taxpayers are footing the bill is magical thinking and a typical right-wing meme. But since almost everyone is in agreement over the **** quality of the higher education that's setting America back, maybe the next debates will go into more detail?

    Speaking of,

    http://www.studentdebtrelief.us/forgiveness/hillary-clinton-student-loan-forgiveness-plan/

    Wait, private sector APRs are lower? Sweet! But the National Review article claims government has a monopoly on loans... like I said, the source is questionable. Especially as they claim "artificially lower", which seems like more bull plopped onto the pile.
     
  2. Robisan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    #2
    Time again for my standard response to this type of nonsense from NR...

    [​IMG]
    Source: New York Times

    The net present value of the return on a 4-year college degree over a High School degrees is almost $600,000. Taxed at a marginal rate of 25% that degree will mean $150,000 NPV in additional tax revenue. Therefore, the Federal government could spend up to $150k now on tuition on average per student and break even over their lifetimes.

    Note: This does not included the societal benefits of innovation, scientific discovery, business and/or job creation etc. that may result from the education purchased. It simply included direct ROI to the student.
     
  3. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #3
    But that assumes there is an equilibrium between college educated and non-college educated. If all of a sudden more people have degrees then that $600K number changes downward and we will have people with degrees working at Starbucks. Oh wait, we have that already.

    We have too many people in college now which is why it has become dumbed down. When I was in college 30 years ago I knew there were people who didn't belong, but were just doing it because it was what they were supposed to do. They graduated and went and got a similar job to what they would have had anyway.
     
  4. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    Catskill Mountains
    #4
    Wow... ugh... That NR piece is the kind of thing you have to struggle to get through if you don't have a direct and immediate stake in the thing, like a towering pile of student loan debt that would take you 18 part time jobs to repay, a payment due tomorrow and the rent due today. My usual reaction to a situation like that would not be to read a conservative takedown of a center-right fake progessive's plan on how to kick student debt down the road. I'm disappointed that I honestly can't make myself finish reading that thing. Maybe after an extra cup of coffee...

    OK so after the caffeine I realized the NR piece is basically just pointing out that Clinton's college debt plan is mostly about persuading Bernie voters to come home to the Democrats, and not a whole lot about helping people who are doing well to graduate semiliterate from a public high school find a job that pays well enough to foot the rent and dinner on the table four out of seven nights a week. I tend to agree, although that's not why I plan to vote for Clinton.

    And I am not sure the Bernie bros are coming home to Clinton anyway. I had lunch with a female Bernie supporter this afternoon and HRC's ears must be burning. There's no way that woman is going to vote for Clinton, although she's unsure whether to abstain or vote for some third party. I mentioned the college debt relief. The woman sniffed and said well my kids repaid their college loans so I'm not impressed she wants to let some kids skip out on the obligation.

    OK then... moving right along to the dessert menu... :eek:

    It's still a problem at the end of the road if we somehow find a way to bump up apprenticeships in local industry for high school graduates. Right now we don't have enough local industry to meet all the potential graduating applicants looking for apprenticeships. Plus we got college graduates flipping burgers and stocking shelves at Kmart.

    How will social cohesion fare, I wonder, when high school graduates in apprenticeship programs end up making better wages than college graduates making less in wages and owing more in college loans? The taxpaying high school graduates with jobs as, say, skilled programmers of automated tool and die makers, will end up footing the bill for the college graduates' apparently worthless degrees when the overqualified burger flippers finally give up and take the forgiveness piece of the default-an-education-loan? That should go over well with the high school grad crowd.

    It's no wonder populism is pressing in on the center from both left and right. What's a wonder is the pols in the national committees are still hellbent on making the same old sausage in the same old way..

    Maybe my friend of today's lunchtime arguments isn't far off when she says the revolution is still coming and there's no reason to vote for the lesser of two evils because governance is the same no matter who wins the election. I've been saying that for years but still holding my nose and voting for the Dems. I said to my friend today "but this is the last time I'm doing that." She laughed. I'm not tempted to vote for Trump but I'm once again tempted to abstain...
     
  5. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #5
    I remember the episode on Frasier when Niles was bragging to the plumber he went to HS with about having a E-Class Mercedes and the plumber replied that he had one of those but moved up to the S-Class for more room. Niles freaked out as he couldn't believe a plumber could make that kind of money.

    On a personal note, my snooty neighbor got pissed when she learned my truck cost more than her Mercedes. :)
     
  6. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    #6
    My LPG supplier bills out their plumbers at 125/hr and sends a pair to do a HW replacement install. One is just a helper... the other one lives downroad from me and has a really nice truck. I think I was in the wrong biz!

    On topic, I am a fan of the apprenticeship programs linking high schools and local industry and hope to see more of them in upstate NY. It gives farmers' kids an option to do something besides borrow money to go to one of the Ag Tech schools (which are good, don't get me wrong) but then if they graduate, they have to leave anyway because the family farms can't cut it any more here, usually, so they end up owing money on their college degree and working on a factory farm out west, for not very much money.
     
  7. Robisan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    #7
    Perhaps. Or maybe an overall more educated population will lead to more growth, innovation, discovery and progress.

    Hence we look at averages like the NPV numbers I posted, which take into account both overachievers and underachievers.
     

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