Add “Kidnapping foreign citizens” to the Shock Doctrine of BushCo.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SMM, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #1
    Add “Kidnapping foreign citizens” to the Shock Doctrine of BushCo."

    Continuing its recent spree of criminality in the alleged pursuit of law enforcement, the Bush Justice Department formally advised a British Court last week that it is fully entitled to kidnap foreigners (i.e., Britons) off the street around the world and carry them off to secret prisons. The claim was formerly thought to relate to terrorists. But no longer. Now the Bush Justice Department asserts the right to kidnap anyone it suspects of a crime…read on

    Rudy Giuliani would be proud.

    Digby:

    I thought it was outrageous that they were doing this to suspected terrorists. But Europeans wanted for white collar crime? They’ve turned our country into the god damned mafia…read on
     
  2. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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  3. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #3
    So, why are there so many cases where we waste the time to go through extradition?

    Of course I noticed you used your favorite source of news. One that's long on outrage and inflamatory rhetoric and short on data to back it up.
     
  4. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #4
    I always thought Harper's was pretty reliable. I don't see anything wrong with that source.
     
  5. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #5
    Then why wasn't the link directly to Harpers rather than the Crooksandliars "filter"?
     
  6. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #6
    I think the question is why don't ALL cases go through extradition?

    Just another sign that bushco feels it is above the law. Now who does that remind you of, Putin, Chavez?
     
  7. abijnk macrumors 68040

    abijnk

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    #7
    Sadly he really is stooping lower and lower and lower.
     
  8. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #8
    What's the difference?
     
  9. SMM thread starter macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #9
    The answers to both questions/comments are self-evident. If I have to explain them, then I doubt you would understand the answer(s).
     
  10. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #10
    You'd think these people would be thrilled to not be extradited properly. They'd have grounds to have their case thrown out of whatever court they were tried in.

    Now, if they are enemy combatants, then they don't have to be extradited.

    It's for the courts to decide.

    To you. Come up for some air.
     
  11. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #11
    So, you're acknowledging that bushco is acting illegally. Good. There's a first time for everything.

    It's a shame that so much court time is being wasted on bushco's illegal activities. Another wise use of our tax dollars, wouldn't you say?:mad:
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    Hey, if he's not gonna complain about a billion dollars (and an American life) a day being wasted for a war only the dead-enders in this country want anymore, this isn't even going to phase him.

    Fiscal responsibility? The GOP gave that up when they thought they had established a permanent majority. I'm wondering how many of them will still be saying "deficits don't matter" when a Democrat is POTUS...
     
  13. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #13
    No, no I'm not. There is precedence for not using extradition. If it applies in this case then fine. If not, then fine too. The courts will decide.

    I really can't simplify what I say much further for you guys. You have to meet me half way on this comprehension bit.

    And I'm wondering how many of YOU will be saying that deficits don't matter when a Democrat is POTUS and he or she is paying back their supporters with taxpayer money on more socialist programs that will never go away.
     
  14. Naimfan macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

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    #14
    My two cents...

    It is absolutely outrageous to me that the US government would EVER assert that someone has no right to contest their detention. It flies in the face of everything I think this nation was founded on and stands for. And we are paying the price for those assertions in blood, opinion, and money.

    As far as "kidnaping" British (or any other national), it is simply ludicrous that anyone, let alone the chief executive, can assert with a straight face that American law permits anything of the sort. It does not.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Last time there was a Democrat in office, there were no deficits.

    I'm also waiting for the hordes of people rushing to decry his claim that Democrats are socialists. You know, like when Republicans are compared to Nazis and everyone wrings their hands and says loudly "that's not fair".

    I'm sure it will just be me and the crickets though. For some reason, it's not acceptable to compare Republicans to Nazis, yet comparing Democrats to Socialists is perfectly acceptable. :rolleyes:
     
  16. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #16
    No- I'll chime in. It is ridiculous.

    And yes- interesting how we had a budget surplus when there was a Democrat in office. Probably the first time since I've been alive that someone actually was fiscally responsible at the Fed. But remember- government doesn't work, and people like Swarmy and W are gonna get in there and prove it to us by running it into the ground.
     
  17. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #17
    I'll chime in too, and add that it's slightly offensive to me as a Socialist to be compared to the centre-right Democratic Party.
     
  18. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #18
    Well that's two of you. But unless we get this discussion out to 3 or 4 pages, I gotta conclude that people in this forum don't care as much about comparing Democrats to Socialists as they do about comparing Republicans to Nazis.

    Either that, or there are some very shrill Republican apologists.
     
  19. yetanotherdave macrumors 68000

    yetanotherdave

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    #19
    The US government may think it's legal under US law, but it may come as a surprise to them to know that kidnapping is ILLEGAL under UK law, and as such their agents will presumably be subject to arrest and I believe 10 years imprisonment.

    Although from reading the story from other sources, it sounds like it was a US Govt lawyer, not representative who said it was technically legal under 1860 US bounty hunter laws, not that it was policy or in practise in any way. I imagine it would break several international laws also.
     
  20. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #20
    Extending the "enemy combatants" to white collar criminals echoes the classic slippery slope argument against giving too much power to the Executive Branch. We know have a system, where any citizen that can be touched by US intelligence agents can be kidnapped, shipped to a secret prison, and kept indefinitely without access to council or courts. They may not even know the charges against them.

    This is simply dangerous and illegal under numerous treaties the US has signed.

    I can't imagine you'd be so dismissive if another country was doing the same thing to US citizens.


    I think both are red herrings intended to steer the discussion into the weeds, which would suit Swarmlord just fine. Better to let him dig into the easy defense of the Republicans=Nazis meme, rather than discuss why the Constitution has become meaningless in light of an over-extended Executive branch, which has attempted to grab power in a way that might make an oligarch like Putin smile, or give King George's ghost a reason to smile.
     
  21. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #21
    I would love to see the courts decide this one. ;)
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #22
    Because some still believe in the law, and ethics.

    Funny coming from someone who rarely if ever backs up their posts. They are partisan, I'll give you that, but from what I've seen of them, they mostly just post links to other sites. And always back up what they post. If it's wrong, they'll post a retraction. But I'm sure the sites you go to are fair and balanced and are always truthful. Not that we'd know, since you don't back up your partisan rhetoric.

    Um, part of the problem is when they bypass the courts. I get where you can be confused, you see Justice Dept and you think courts. Not what's happening. Anyone paying attention knows that, which is why it's so ridiculous you don't seem to know what we're talking about. I guess we just expect it's a given.

    For those who don't know, the Justice Dept has become more political, and worse, far more partisan. They're basically saying they can bypass extradition and pull people off the street just by calling terrorism. Even if it isn't. Any wonder we call for better oversight, no matter how many times they mention terrorists.

    If the deficit gets worse, most of us will still be pissed. Actually, many of us will also continue to be mad even if it stays the same. Again, just because you're a partisan, doesn't mean we're going to go defending the Dems just because we don't like the GOP. If you payed any attention, you'd see we already criticize them, and I don't see how that'll change.

    If those "socialist" programs work, unlike Bush's, then we should support them. If they don't, and/or they cost more than they are worth, then they should go. Same with them awarding their buddies. I don't see why we wouldn't still have a problem with that. We already do. But since you're the only one defending your guys over this, the cries of phantom hypocrisy somehow ring shallow.

    Not excusing it, and glad you pointed it out, but it should be obvious how ridiculous it is.

    Of course he wouldn't. He'd be calling to bomb them back to the stoneage, then making jokes that they already are in the stoneage. Completely missing the hypocrisy. Already does over far less.

    Would be the same thing if a Dem was in office. I'm sure he thinks the same of us, that we're all partisan hacks who'd defend "our own". Despite all evidence to the contrary. Well, that and I don't see many Dems who'd want to do such things. I'm guessing then the excuse would be that if they didn't, they'd be letting the terrorists win. :rolleyes:
     
  23. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #23
    what? are you suggesting that socialists are as evil as nazis??? Why ever would a democrat who's been called a socialist be as upset as a republican who's been called a nazi??
     
  24. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #24
    Well, I've been told that Socialism killed more people than Nazis, so yeah.
     
  25. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #25
    Because the Nazis called themselves socialist, just like the Soviets called themselves communist, so it has negative connotations. It's just as ridiculous when used, especially if it doesn't fit. Which lately, it really doesn't fit. But it makes a good distracting sound bite if you have nothing else, which as we see, they don't because this is reprehensible and completely against what we're supposed to stand for and completely impossible to defend the people they support who are doing this.
     

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