Afgan election rife with corruption

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by toontra, Aug 18, 2009.

  1. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #1
    It would appear that the upcoming Afgan election is rife with corruption - no shock there, but is this really what we should be paying for, both in tax dollars and lives?

    BBC article
     
  2. Shivetya macrumors 65816

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    #2
    Is there a better alternative?
     
  3. stevegmu macrumors regular

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    A stone's throw from the White House.
  4. toontra thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #4
    "We'll fix our elections if we like", Karzai tells US envoy. This is one sorry, sorry mess.

    BBC report

    In one area of Helmand, where 10 UK soldiers died leading up to the election, only 150 people vote: Mirror story
     
  5. BoyBach macrumors 68040

    BoyBach

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    #5
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6811537.ece


    EDIT: Oops! toontra has already posted this sad story.
     
  6. rasmasyean macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    This place has become a playground for zealots to “find Allah”, and coalition to “test weapons”. This war is such a joke of a “war”, they just seem to inch along, going back and forth with territory and just mess around like it’s some experimental state. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “elections” are just some politically inspired front that doesn’t really do anything except secure a live proving grounds to sell arms. After all, it’s good business to sell arms and battlefield services and contracts to make more arms and battlefield services. There might not be “oil” like in Iraq, but apparently there are willing targets on both sides duking out for other people’s shareholder profits.
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/on-helmands-frontline-with-the-us-marines-1786627.html
    Remind me why we are in Afghanistan again. The whole thing is a disaster, and has been from the very beginning.

    Properly implemented security measures in the US would have prevented 9/11. Why on earth the thirst for revenge was allowed to destroy the international consensus, two sovereign states, hundreds of thousands of lives and at least four national budgets, is a mystery. War is always the worst option.
     
  8. rasmasyean macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    There’s no such thing as an undefeatable security system.

    As for why we fight? …for one thing, it brings the fight to the enemy. They want to fight anyway so it’s better for us to let them kill a couple of hundred soldiers in a wasteland than kill a couple of thousands defenseless civilians in a single blast. It’s also the job of soldiers to be meat shields while the workers produce more and more means to fight. Especially since the cost of lives is cheap there compared to real wars in the past. Heck, ppl die in training…at least dying there is not as embarrassing and justifies the dangerous work more than blowing up in an experimental aircraft in peacetime.

    No entity can wage war without an economy. Even the rag tag Taliban need supplies from their allies from Pakistan and Iran, etc. They also get USSR leftovers in this case, but that’s why we’re there to find them b4 they use them. Why were WWII bombs aimed at factories where civilians are? Soft targets. Same in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Let them waste their ammo against our troops. That’s their job to take the bullets.

    And in reality, perhaps it’s also profitable to some parties to invent weapons to counter these “threats”. As long as there’s a battlefield, the “demand” is there. The US has a highly profitable foreign defense industry in a world economy that has collapsed. “Hey look at what these can blow up! This works so great see? You want to buy some don’t you?” ;)
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=781126
     
  9. barkmonster macrumors 68020

    barkmonster

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    #9
    The whole 9/11 attack and resulted action in the middle east just shows how pointless wars seeded by religious hate, intolerance or fanaticism are. No one with any power should be allowed to use the old "my imaginary friend is better than yours" argument as an excuse for violence. There's plenty of sane people in the world with a value system from this millennium who could take their place.

    They should pull all our troops out and level the entire country with every long range missile they've got. (nothing nuclear obviously). What use is Afghanistan to the rest of the world anyway?

    For one, they produce a hell of a lot of opium so the west has to put up with the problems of smack heads or psycho doctors like harold shipman using opium based medication to kill people. I'm sure there's a ton of other negative effects countries like that have had on the world.

    As for the Islamic extremism that triggered 9/11 in the first place. I wonder if 20% of the world would be so accepting of someone who claims to talk to supernatural beings, spouts his own version of a pre-existing mythology to get some very deluded people on his side, ends up shacking up with a 9 year old girl in his 50s so he can groom her for a few years then marries the poor kid 4 or 5 years later in THIS century?
     
  10. djellison macrumors 68020

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    #10
    Trying to impose western style democracy on a country like Afghanistan, is like imposting Sharia law on the Western World.

    It's just wrong.


    It's not our country, it's not our problem, but we HAVE made a mess of the place.
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #11
    There is, however, such a thing as gross incompetence.

    Which enemy? We turned a small group of dedicated extremists into a worldwide movement with almost inexhaustible manpower by means of the crassness of our foreign policy, the dishonesty of our motivation and the ineptitude of our military adventurism.
    I expect you'll get the vote of all the military families with that line. Besides, what about the hundreds of thousands of defenceless civilians killed in Afghanistan and Iraq? You may call it a wasteland, but it's somebody else's country.
    This is perhaps the most extraordinarily gross post I have seen on this forum, and it's up against some pretty stiff competition.
    You cannot seriously be trying to justify mass carnage in a pointless war by referring to the sales opportunities generated? Just where did you learn your ethics? What are you fighting for, principles or profit?

    Are there? Which wars seeded by religious hate are you referring to? Al Qaeda are marginalised and the Taliban are fighting - very effectively, it seems - against an occupying coalition supporting a corrupt puppet regime in their own country. This has little to do with religion.

    I see you are competing with rasmasyean for the most ignorant and gross post of the year. What a revolting pair of posts!

    The west buys the opium. It would not be a problem if the west did not. You can't seriously be blaming Afghanistan for Harold Shipman.
     
  12. rasmasyean macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Skunk…I just see the world for what it is. And hence, I offer an explanation as to why things are.

    While you may have some sort of “ideals” about how you think the world should be, unfortunately, that’s just in fairy tale land. Just because someone can see something other than “knight in shining armor stories”, doesn’t mean they are unethical or gross or revolting.

    Since you want to just exchange insults, I have just one for you. Naïve. Wake up!
     
  13. BoyBach macrumors 68040

    BoyBach

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    #13
    It wasn't that long ago that rasmasyean was declaring the war in Afghanistan won. What went wrong?


    I agree.

    Also let's get rid of Vanuatu (we've already got Fiji, so what's the point in another Pacific Island?). Ooh, and Suriname, Guyana and the other one up in the north east of South America that make up that triumvirate of countries I can never remember the names of when I'm bored and compiling a list in my head of all the worlds countries. :rolleyes:


    Google University, presumably.
     
  14. rasmasyean macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    When did I even imply that it was over and “won” or whatever you mean by that. The Afghan army is 100K+ strong and they are armed in with many US weapons as well as a matter of fact. And that’s perhaps part of the coalition’s main objective…to build a self-sustaining force for them to fend for themselves and pave the way to their OWN ability. And it turns out that we will likely be selling more arms to them in the future as mentioned…hence securing their power.

    Even years from now there will prolly still be pockets of rebels (“terrorists”) and associated activity crop up now and then. And maybe the US, or Germans, or whoever will want to stick around and get a piece of the action…whatever. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the Pentagon and General Dynamics shareholders perhaps.

    That’s why I’m saying that one possibility is that they are just hunkering down and letting the drones and whatever new weapon technology perform live experiments on the battlefield. Just as how you see they keep locating and killing “leaders”, they are proving the viability of the new found weapon systems.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    I have not insulted you personally. I have decried your posts for their obscenity and their inhumanity. As for your supposed insult to me, frankly I would rather die as a naïve idealist than live as a mass-murdering realist.
     
  16. BoyBach macrumors 68040

    BoyBach

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    #16

    You're right and I do apologise. (I got my Bush Imperial Wars muddled.)
     
  17. barkmonster macrumors 68020

    barkmonster

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    #17
    The 9/11 attack WAS seeded by the religious hatred of Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists and WAS the catalyst for ALL the resultant action from the west in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Or to put it more simply.

    The Taliban are deluded fanatics who'll kill, terrorise or oppress anyone who doesn't agree with all the barbaric and twisted rules of their "My imaginary friend is better than yours and everyone else is wrong" club.

    How effectively the Taliban has fought the west on their own soil is nothing to do with the fact it was Islamic Fundamentalism that lead to the 9/11 attacks.

    Should I have kept it even more simple and left out the easy to understand examples of why Opium production is a bad thing no matter where it's happening by simply stating;

    Opium production = BAD

    Stopping Opium production = GOOD

    ?
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #18
    Absolute rubbish. The 9/11 attack was "seeded" by the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia, and Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    This primitive thinking is precisely what gets our nations into these tragic, deadly and pointless adventures in the first place.

    It is not even true: we use opiates frequently, both for palliative medicine and for entertainment, and anyway production has gone UP since 2001. The Taleban were reducing production very effectively.
     
  19. rasmasyean macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    The story of religious warring is not so straight forward and can’t simply put in terms of a “my god is better than yours so you shall die” story. Rather, various leaders often use religion as merely a vehicle to accomplish military and political objectives. Does it have to be true? Truth is something left for the individual after all. But if you can get someone to believe in your “jihad”, then you can get him to do all sorts of things in the name of it whether or not even you and your commanders actually believe it…never mind a whole country.

    Some of the coalition soldiers believe in their own forms of “god and country”. They can’t be all right…but many will also perform their version of “jihad” in their own way. Just that they are not desperate enough to kamikaze themselves with suicide vests.

    In reality, not all “Taliban” are like some Islamic style truth and justice fanatics. They are human too so among them are liars who have something to gain buy “following” this path to get ppl to blow themselves up. Some are just doing it for pay and benefits because that’s their way of life and it’s the only one they know. Some want to sell drugs. Others like power. Selling drugs can’t be “Islamic”, can it? But heck they would find some way to cover this contradiction when it’s needed to fund their political objectives.

    So if anything it’s more about battling ignorance and desperation…which is the breeding ground for these types of ideas to be imprinted among people. There will always be fanatics from any walk of life, but if you reduce the amount of them, then you have won half the battle. If you let these leaders form an ignorant country, then you will have increased the chance of someone being in there training themselves or others to crash planes into buildings for whatever reason, whether it be Saudia Arabia or pornography.

    The Nazi’s were sort of like religious zealots too. The SS were “carefully selected” from Aryan origins and indoctrinated with some sense of superiority and ancient Nordic beliefs or whatever… They made them capable to performing many horrors as well and turned them into a formidable fighting force to try to conquer many lands for Germany. If they are willing to fight to the death for whatever reason, then that’s a pretty good advantage. Unfortunate for them there was a country on an unreachable continent with a nearly unlimited means to produce weapons and a capability to level their cities with them. Oh well…I guess that’s one ignorant nation out of the way. LOL
     
  20. jzuena macrumors 6502a

    jzuena

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    #20
    Right, Iraq had nothing to do with it. They didn't invade Kuwait, Sadam was just vacationing there. The Saudi government didn't ask us to bring troops there to keep Iraq from invading them as well, it was just a big timeshare sales pitch they were trying out. Desert Shield was just the beach umbrellas used during the sales pitch not a defensive force keeping Iraq, who had nothing to do with anything, from crossing the border there as well. Desert Storm was just Osama's temper-tantrum when his timeshare unit went unsold.

    Iraq -- specifically Sadam's invasion of Kuwait -- is what precipitated every event in this chain. Osama wanted Saudi Arabia to take on Sadam on their own. King Fahd was smart enough to see that if something went wrong they would be open to invasion by Iraq and asked for help. This pissed Osama off. No invasion by the nothing to do with it Iraq, no US troops in Saudi Arabia.
     
  21. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    It's amazing that your little tirade conveniently leaves out the fact that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was sanctioned by the US.

    I don't believe that your scenario is what really happened and I question whether we'll ever know what happened.
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #22
    Nonsense. Diagonal drilling under the border by the Kuwaitis, using Bush 41's Pennzoil-supplied machinery, extracting oil from Iraqi territory, followed by April Glasspie's evident green light for retribution, was the trigger for the whole sequence. Iraq had nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    We've been screwing around in the middle east longer than I have been born. Thats why I am so surprised that Ron Paul was met with criticisms when he suggested that we may have done our part in causing 9/11.

    Don't piss in someone else's cheerios and its likely they will leave yours alone. .




    Solar Power.
     
  24. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #24
    don't you mean 4chan? :p
     
  25. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    so no more support for Israel?
     

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