Ah, Socialism: Venezuela's president says "Venezuela's healthcare is one of the best in the world"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by DUCKofD3ATH, May 19, 2016.

  1. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended


    Jun 6, 2005
    Universe 0 Timeline
    What Socialism always delivers given time (fair warning: don't look at the photos on an empty stomach):

    No electricity, no antibiotics, no beds, no soap: A devastating look inside Venezuela's crisis-hit hospitals where 7 babies die a day, bleeding patients lie strewn on the floor, and doctors try to operate without tools
    In just one day, the newspaper's reporters witnessed the deaths of seven babies since there were no oxygen tanks, and doctors had to pump air into their lungs by hand.

    A 68-year-old diabetic patient interviewed has to have her leg amputated; the hospital did not have dialysis machines or the antibiotics she requires.

    One had to have an almost-rupturing appendix removed without proper tools or sanitation. Another died because the blood bank was closed due to a public holiday, which was randomly called by the government to save electricity.

    President Nicolas Maduro has refused attempts to seek international or monetary support for the country's healthcare system that he says would effectively 'privatize' healthcare.

    The socialist leader, Hugo Chavez's successor, claims such a move would have devastating impacts on the country.

    And he even insists Venezuela's healthcare is one of the best in the world: 'I doubt that anywhere in the world, except in Cuba, there exists a better health system than this one,' he said.
    Meanwhile, Americans are awaiting the devastating double-digit increases in Obamacare premiums this November:

    The last thing Democrats want to contend with just a week before the 2016 presidential election is an outcry over double-digit insurance hikes as millions of Americans begin signing up for Obamacare.

    But that looks increasingly likely as health plans socked by Obamacare losses look to regain their financial footing by raising rates.
    “I think a lot of insurance carriers expected red ink, but they didn’t expect this much red ink,” said Greg Scott, who oversees Deloitte’s health plans practice. "A number of carriers need double-digit increases.”
    The timing, though, is bad news for Democrats. Proposed rate hikes are just starting to dribble out, setting up a battle over health insurance costs in a tumultuous presidential election year that will decide the fate of Obamacare.

    And the headlines are likely to keep coming right up to Election Day since many consumers won’t see actual rates until the insurance marketplaces open Nov. 1 — a week before they go to the polls.​

    Socialism at its various stages of FAIL.
  2. thewap macrumors 6502a


    Jun 19, 2012
    Venezuela is on the verge of total collapse..a veritable Bernie dream come true..
  3. Fancuku macrumors 65816


    Oct 8, 2015
    PA, USA
    Wait, according to our left wing friends here, Cuba has the best healthcare in the world. When did Venezuela surpass them?
  4. TheAppleFairy macrumors 68020


    Mar 28, 2013
    The Clinton Archipelago unfortunately
    The fact that nobody has to pay for it is ranked very high on the "quality of care"....The waiting list and actually quality of care are way down at the bottom.
  5. zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    Obamacare = Law saying you must buy PRIVATE insurance from a PRIVATE company.

    Private company != socialism.

    Thread = Fail.
  6. Populism macrumors regular


    Jun 11, 2014
    But but but "access to healthcare"!
  7. thewitt macrumors 68020


    Sep 13, 2011
    Cuba sends its doctors to Venezuela as a commodity.
  8. thewitt macrumors 68020


    Sep 13, 2011
    A waiting list is only interesting if you have a serious illness... The number of people with those is actually quite low, and since they die without treatment, they are not around to respond to the survey anyway.
  9. 0007776 Suspended


    Jul 11, 2006
    That was corporate welfare, not socialism. Basically what you have shown is that two different systems can have flaws. However there are plenty of examples of socialist healthcare systems working well in most of the developed world yet there is no example anywhere of a free market healthcare system working well.
  10. zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    Don't waste your time arguing with people who don't even understand what socialism is.
  11. DUCKofD3ATH thread starter Suspended


    Jun 6, 2005
    Universe 0 Timeline
    It's a stepping stone toward socialized medicine such as the UK suffers with:

    Care Quality Commission: Three in four NHS hospitals are failing, says watchdog
    Three in four NHS hospitals are failing, according to the first set of official rankings comparing the majority of the health service.

    New Ofsted-style rankings show 76 per cent of NHS hospital trusts have been given an overall rating of inadequate or requiring improvement.

    Watchdogs said their greatest concern was safety, with three quarters of hospitals branded unsafe.

    Failing NHS is itself diseased
    Since 2001, we have had 450 British fatalities in Afghanistan. During the same period, Mid Staffs hospital alone was responsible for at least 1,200 avoidable deaths. Astonishingly, this outrageous statistic is just the tip of the iceberg.

    A report last week by NHS Medical Director Sir Bruce Keogh detailed failings at another 14 English NHS trusts which may be responsible for 13,000 unnecessary deaths.

    From this dismal catalogue of inadequate care, medical errors and management blunders, it is clear the Staffordshire scandal was far from a one-off. Again, the development of "superbugs" like MRSA has occurred almost entirely in NHS hospitals.

    People have gone into hospital with a minor ailment, only to contract a fatal disease and leave in a box.​

    Obamacare is a failure and it's not even full-blown socialized medicine. Stop it now.
  12. zioxide macrumors 603


    Dec 11, 2006
    Everything in your described articles happens in the US as well.

    Remember the great job that privately owned Texas hospital did with the Ebola patient last year? They did such a bang up job that only two staff members contracted the virus! /s
  13. DUCKofD3ATH thread starter Suspended


    Jun 6, 2005
    Universe 0 Timeline
    Really? 76% of US hospitals are unsafe like those in the UK??
  14. NT1440 macrumors G5


    May 18, 2008
    It's not even remotely socialist, and you know that. Explain to me how corporate healthcare is socialist?
  15. DUCKofD3ATH thread starter Suspended


    Jun 6, 2005
    Universe 0 Timeline
    It happens in stages. Stage 2 is about to occur in November as insurance companies charge more for healthcare than people can afford. Stage 3 is when the government steps in and takes over from the insurance companies.

    You know the rest (so do the good people of Venezuela).
  16. NT1440 macrumors G5


    May 18, 2008
    Thats a valid timeline, my friend's mother was at the executive level of CL&P (CT's energy provider) and left the company after the plan was explicitly to drive rates up (pocketing it of course) to the point where the state would then have to take over. Now it didn't go that way as the plan didn't work out.

    So you're essentially agreeing with my analysis why certain fields should never be handed over to private entities where all the incentives are there to just jack up prices for the sake of shareholders, knowing damn well that when the system stops working they can just offload it to the government.
  17. Raid macrumors 68020


    Feb 18, 2003
    Socialism really isn't to blame for the crisis in Venezuela. You could place the blame on a oil based economy, and the lack of market control over prices and capitalist behaviour of other Oil markets flexing their market dominance. It's hurting most oil producing companies, Venezuela has been hit particularly hard because it's primary export (to the tune of 95% or so) is crude oil.
  18. bradl macrumors 68040


    Jun 16, 2008
    That 'not even full-blown socialized medicine' allowed my wife to live. Without it, she would have died. Are you willing to give up your eyes so that she can see so she can get off this 'not even full-socialized medicine'?


    Then I suggest that you keep your opinion to yourself.

    Oh, BTW: Fidel Castro underwent intestinal surgery in 2006 in Venezuela. He is still alive today.

    Steve Jobs paid $520,000 for a liver transplant to fight pancreatic cancer in 2009. That was $520,000 with health insurance, and before the ACA.

    He died 2 years later.

    Congratulations on yet another DuckofDeath fail of a thread.

  19. hulugu macrumors 68000


    Aug 13, 2003
    quae tangit perit Trump
    Essentially this thread is an attempt to reduce the complex argument of health care to the worst-case scenario possible—anyone who thinks that the U.S. is steps away from turning into Venezuela doesn't understand, among other things:

    1. Economics.
    2. Health care delivery.
    3. Socialism.
    4. Capitalism.

    The question is, why does socialized medicine largely work in Canada, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Costa Rica, and much of Europe, but fail in Venezuela?

    And, moervoer, the OECD average for spending on health care is roughly 9.6 percent of GDP, but the U.S. spends 17.4 percent of GDP to get mediocre results among OECD countries.

    For instance, the U.S. ranks at 29 among OECD countries when it comes to health care delivery, ranking lower than most countries in the number of practicing doctors and available hospital beds.
  20. HEK macrumors 68040


    Sep 24, 2013
    US Eastern time zone
    Of course they pick the worst, because Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, those socialist medical single payer systems work very well. But I gues it's fair to compare the worst socialist style medical system against the worst profit driven private system, ours. All the affordable care act did was help subsidize private insurance for the underpaid workers in the US. Real change would have been to open up a single payer system subsidized by tax funds. Sorta like the health care provides congress and their families for life on my dime. Congress had no issues funding that. Strange how they have it for themselves but not the people they are supposed to represent. Another privalaged class screaming do as I say, not as I do. Guess socialized medicine is ok for them. Same shameful folk who spend years denying help to 9/11 first responders.
  21. oneMadRssn macrumors 601


    Sep 8, 2011
    New England
    Good points. The mistake the OP makes is saying Venezuela's health-care system is awful because it is socialist. It seems that country has so many issues, it would be awful regardless. In any event, if Venezuela had a totally free-market insurance system, I wager it would be even worse. At least those people have some access to healthcare, however miserable. Under a free-market system, they would have no health care.

    Taking a big big step back, I think the main question is this: Is there anything which isn't morally right to put under a profit motive? Conservatives and evangelicals always talk about principles, and this question touches on principles.

    I propose the following things are immoral to put under a profit motive:
    - Policing
    - Courts
    - Incarceration
    - Natural disaster aid (including fire, earthquake, floor, storm, etc.)
    - Accident aid (including fire and ambulance)
    - Child care (up to a certain point)
    - Education (up to a certain point)
    - Medical care

    That isn't to say people shouldn't be able to purchase additional services that go above and beyond. For example, if you feel the policing isn't enough for you, you can hire a body guard. Likewise, you can pay for special silver-spoon child care or whatever. Likewise, you can pay for additional health-care. But up to a point that is beneficial to everything, the above things should not be driven by profits.
  22. Toltepeceno Suspended


    Jul 17, 2012
    SMT, Edo MX, MX
    Wait. So you are saying then it's much better to be taxed to death in a bad socialistic medical system than not in a bad capitalistic system?

    Actually the us system is pretty good, we have a free healthcare system here but people do not go. It's really bad. People with money go to the us for health care from here in mexico. True there are some that come here from the us but it's a dice throw what you will get.
  23. obeygiant macrumors 68040


    Jan 14, 2002
    totally cool
    Socialism is perfect, you can't poke holes in it. It's completely ironclad and always works no matter what.
  24. FieldingMellish Suspended

    Jun 20, 2010
    The Market is Taking Over Sweden’s Health Care

    "So it should be no surprise that, as The Local reports, Swedes en masse get private health care insurance on the side of the failing welfare systems. This is indirectly a result of the relatively vast liberalization of the Swedish economy over the course of the past 20 years (as I have noted here and here), which has resulted in the “experimental” privatization of several hospitals (even one emergency hospital is privately owned). While previously only the political elite (primarily, members of the Riksdag, the Swedish parliament) had access to private health care through insurance, the country now sees a blossoming and healthy insurance market."

  25. thermodynamic Suspended


    May 3, 2009
    Wait, Bernie be like a socialist. Why would a socialist dream of socialist countries collapsing?
    --- Post Merged, May 19, 2016 ---

    So when does the US marketplace improve? We've had the market solution for a lot longer and people have had increasing issues with it to the point that reforms had to take place. Reforms that weren't full, apart from being full of compromises that ensured any reform was weak at best. To the point and you're free to research this, that even without the ACA, costs of even low-end insurance would qualify for the so-called "Cadillac tax" in a few years.

    Socialism is not great, fair enough. The opposite side of the spectrum, the free market, has its defenders seemingly playing "hide and seek".

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