Alfie Evans

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by BoxerGT2.5, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #1
  2. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

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    #2
    You provided a paid link so many people, including me, will not read it. But I can guess the gist of the story - some bad experience someone had with government run healthcare. Second, your use of the term "the left" is an unnecessary generalization as I'm sure that many people on "the left" would not want to ignore stories like this.

    You must never have had a bad experience with privately run healthcare, but many people have and could relate their own horror stories. People are always being told by their insurance what they can and cannot do. The idea that this happens less in a privately run healthcare system is simply not true. I know of someone whose child was unjustly kicked off of their private insurance and it took months and several levels of appeal to get him back on.

    Do you have any experience with Medicare, either for yourself or someone in your family? I have, and I can tell you that it ran very smoothly, with a minimum of paperwork, and I almost never had any problem dealing with it. I'm sure that citizens of Canada, England, France, Sweden, etc. would never choose to give up their government run healthcare for the type of insurance company run healthcare we have in the U.S.
     
  3. Populism, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018

    Populism macrumors regular

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    #3
    What a tragic story. Wasn't familiar with that. Thanks for the link.

    So you came here to say that you didn't and won't read the article, that you can guess what it's about, and that you can make arguments against what you guess it was about.
     
  4. BoxerGT2.5 thread starter macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #4
    1. It's the Washington post
    2. Point to me where anyone on the "right" is advocating for government run healthcare. It's the left and folks like Sanders who want this type of system.
    3. US healthcare doesn't strip anyone of their parental rights when it comes to saving the life of their child.
    4. I have extensive experience with Medicare, which isn't anything like the UK system. Our VA system is more akin to the UK system and it's been a disaster for years.
     
  5. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

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    #5
    I addressed OP's initial comments and generalizations about government run healthcare. That didn't require any guesswork.
     
  6. ugahairydawgs macrumors 68030

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  7. Populism macrumors regular

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    #7
    I guess we're reading different OPs. The short one I'm reading includes this:

    But you didn't "address" it.

    Was OP lying?
     
  8. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

    mac_in_tosh

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    That no one on the right advocates for government run healthcare does not mean everyone on the left does so, or that everyone on the left who does would agree with what's going on in the UK in this case.

    And we can assume that any US government run healthcare also wouldn't.

    And again, you are ignoring the disaster stories of our privately run healthcare. I could equally as well find some horror story and start a thread here saying it's a story "the right" wants you to ignore in their attempt to take down Obamacare.

    So what was your experience with Medicare?
     
  9. VulchR, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018

    VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #9
    So ... the objection is that the UK court system after hearing all the medical evidence, is allowing medical staff to withdraw life support because Alfie has an untreatable lethal disease likely to cause unacceptable pain and suffering if they prolong his life. They are also not allowing Alfie to be subjected to the unacceptable pain - and risk of death - of moving him to Italy for treatment. I get that this situation is awful for his parents and for Alfie, but what would you have the UK courts do? Allow the kid to suffer for as long as he could be prodded and poked to be kept alive?

    It sound likes like your objection is that the parents should make the decision. Perhaps, but Alfie is not his parent's property, and there are limits to how they can legally treat him. They cannot abuse him, for example. This is not about government-provided health care. This is a legal issue about the responsibility of the State versus the views of the parents in looking after the best interests of a child. This issue is not completely resolved in the US, even with its profiteering medical system. If, for instance, a kid in the US has a serious treatable illness, but the parents object to treatment on religious grounds, in some states the parents can be overruled and potentially prosecuted and in others they cannot (see link).

    This is the problem with the right. They encounter an apple but their emotions make them see an orange.

    EDIT: It has been pointed out that if Alfie had been in a private UK hospital, the UK courts would have still been involved (see Peterkro's post below). Again, this is an legal and ethical issue, not an NHS issue.
     
  10. mac_in_tosh, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018

    mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

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    #10
    I really don't understand your question. Who said he was lying? What I objected to was making a generalization from the story (which I have now read on other web sites) to any and all government run healthcare and lack of acknowledgment that insurance companies in our system routinely deny coverage to customers for things big and small.
     
  11. Raid macrumors 68020

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    #12
    The poor kid and the dilemma between the parents and the doctors and the quality of life for that child is probably not the best example to hold up for a system looking to make a profit on all of this.
     
  12. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68040

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    #13
    Link doesn’t work unless you have a subscription to the Washington post.
     
  13. BoxerGT2.5, Apr 26, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018

    BoxerGT2.5 thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #14
    A lot of guess work their as to "likely", the doctors also said he wouldn't last buy a few hours off life support, they were wrong there too. Doctors can be wrong. You say the state is stepping in to not allow Alfie to be subjected to risk of death, they've literally signed his death warrant. They told the parents they're taking him off life support. The Italian government had a medical helicopter with medical crew standing by to transfer him, we're not talking about the family scooping him up in the queen family truckster for a road trip to Rome. Like I said in my OP, if you want to understand why some object to government run healthcare this is one example of why.

    Again, my answer when you ask "what would you like the UK courts to do", let the parents fight to keep their child alive. Alfie isn't the parents property? Who's is he? The state? I guess that's apparently where our opinions diverge, my kids are my responsibility, you must view your kids as property of the state. Your example of abusing him or refusing medical treatment based on religious ground doesn't apply here because we're talking about a right to life. No, parents can't decide to withhold medical treatment for diabetes and just let their kid fall into a diabetic coma and die because of some religious objection to sugar. Just about everyone would view that position as insane. The state steps in to protect the life of the child.

    The royal family just had a child, do you honestly think the UK courts would prevent Prince William and Kate from taking their child to Italy to seek treatment if the kid had a life threatening condition?
     
  14. Populism macrumors regular

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    #15
    I don't have a subscription and was able to get through first try. But I wonder if it is because you get a certain number of peaks a month, and I don't visit that site.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 26, 2018 ---
    That's an interesting way to couch the issue. You raise a fair question.
     
  15. BoxerGT2.5 thread starter macrumors 68000

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    #16
    I know in today's day and age where everyone has to run to their respective battle stations on every topic and assume everything is black and white, but raising a serious reservation with one form of healthcare system does not equate to believing everything is perfect with our own. It's not one or the other.
     
  16. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #17
    A lot of the reporting on this is very bad, the CNN article for instance said the doctors were surprised when he breathed on his own in spite of the doctors pointing out this was a real possibility before he was taken off ventilation.The doctors from the Vatican hospital have been to speak with those at Alder Hey and have agreed all they can offer is palliative care.I doubt a helivac is going to fly from Liverpool to Rome with patient and medics on board a small jet would do it.
    A human being is not property (something the "Libertarians" can't get their head around) so doesn't belong to anyone.
    By the way this same process would be gone through if the boy was being treated in one of the many private hospitals in the U.K. and I'd certainly hope members of the royal family would be treated like anyone else.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 26, 2018 ---
    As you'd see from my later post exactly the same process would be followed in the U.K. private health system.
     
  17. Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #18
    I have read the full judgment (which is nuanced, compassionate, informed, and intelligent) and am astounded that anyone is citing this particular case as an argument against a state funded healthcare system.
     
  18. Raid macrumors 68020

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    #19
    True but the Alfie Evans case is a tangled emotionally volatile mess and objectivity about the kids medical condition is difficult to process. I know the parents want to do everything they can for Alfie, but the doctors are saying that he will not recover, and the quality of life he will have on a ventilator in Vatican city will only serve to further the pain and suffering of the kid.

    I can only comprehend the mental torture that the parents are going through, but they have to come to terms about what's best for Alfie, and sadly that appears to be letting him go.
    And that sucks all around.
     
  19. BoxerGT2.5 thread starter macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    The doctors in the UK and the UK courts are saying he's toast, ANOTHER set of doctors are willing to take over care. The UK government or courts would have no liability whatsoever. I would be in jail right now if some court in Cook County told me my kid was being taken off life support and that I couldn't transfer care to other physicians willing to help him.

    Again, I doubt the royal family would be told "tough ****", start making funeral arrangements.
     
  20. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #21
    If you can stomach it here's an example of what this type of religious insanity can lead to:

     
  21. Falhófnir macrumors 68030

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    #22
    Perfect example of confirmation bias - you see only in this issue what you want to because it confirms your preconceived views. How about flipping it around and the American system bleeding the parents dry off of false hope through ‘one more procedure’ even though they know full well it’s a terminal condition and the child isn’t going to get better?
     
  22. BoxerGT2.5 thread starter macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #23
    No confirmation bias in claiming the American system just bleeds everyone dry based on false hope. :rolleyes:
     
  23. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #24
    As a British citizen the UK government has the obligation to look out for the best interests of Alfie. In so doing they have determined that the best course of action is to not extend his pain and suffering by extending his palliative care. Again it stinks but, preserving life over quality of life is just plain cruel.
     
  24. Falhófnir macrumors 68030

    Falhófnir

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    #25
    Wasn’t what I said though, was it? Just trying to get you to look at it with an open mind.
     

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