All Iraq Ain't All Bad

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Desertrat, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #1
    http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/thanks-and-praise.htm

    "A Muslim man had invited the American soldiers from “Chosen” Company 2-12 Infantry to the church, where I videotaped as Muslims and Christians worked and rejoiced at the reopening of St John’s, an occasion all viewed as a sign of hope.

    The Iraqis asked me to convey a message of thanks to the American people. ” Thank you, thank you,” the people were saying. One man said, “Thank you for peace.” Another man, a Muslim, said “All the people, all the people in Iraq, Muslim and Christian, is brother.” The men and women were holding bells, and for the first time in memory freedom rang over the ravaged land between two rivers."

    'Rat
     
  2. Queso macrumors G4

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    #2
    Sadly if that picture gets widespread circulation I don't give St. John's church much time at all.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Well that's it then. Smashing success.

    Can we bring the troops home now? Or has it been such a success that we'll need to keep troops there for 50 years?
     
  4. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #4
    Looks like it's all over! Can my cousin come home now, please?
     
  5. Mac OS X Ocelot macrumors 6502a

    Mac OS X Ocelot

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    #5
    MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
     
  6. saltyzoo macrumors 65816

    saltyzoo

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    #6
    Yes, I mean the troops in Germany came home the day after WWII ended, right?
     
  7. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #7
    Lets not forget about Korea. ;)
     
  8. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #8
    I believe there were some extenuating circumstances involved there. As conservatives like to note, WWIII began right about that time.

    Ah yes. Another smashing military success, no?
     
  9. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    "It's sad and interesting that nobody even questions that the OP might exaggerate or take things out of context, but there's no problem accepting the premise of the thread."

    Hmmm....
     
  10. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #10
    I'd say the South Koreans would think so. They were the ones invaded, and we led the U.N. to throw out the invaders.
     
  11. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #11
    And 50 years later we're still at war with the invaders. Sounds like the definition of military success to me.
     
  12. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #12
    What's that song again? Oh yeah...

     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    That was my first thought too. Great. We won. Let's leave.

    We don't still have hundreds of thousands of active combat troops currently coming and going from either of those places right now do we? In war zones? With another couple of hundred thousand paid militia... er, I mean, contractors?

    Of course NK already has nukes, so it's obvious we need to focus on real threats, places that might have had weapons related programs like Iraq... I mean, Iran.
     
  14. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #14
    I don't see where this is in any way more than an indicator that what's being done is making improvements over the way things have been there. This item merely corroborates what a lot of the GIs there are saying. Nobody is pretending that it's all wonderful all over the country.

    From the comments, it sounds like a lot of folks are hoping that we'll leave and a civil war will break out, providing a lot of dead bodies as proof of the cleverness of the naysayers.

    It's pretty obvious that the purely military strategy worked. It's also obvious that the occupation strategy sucked. Well, you don't go to someone's house, puke on the carpet and then just leave and go home. You stay and help clean up the mess. Cleaning up the mess is a slow process. It's obviously too slow for an instant-gratification society...

    'Rat
     
  15. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #15
    But this line of thinking assumes that a) a civil war at this point is avoidable and b) a civil war will be more destructive than continued occupation. Upon assuming those two premises to be true, we encounter a third premise; the occupation is capable of defeating the terrorists/stopping violence and preventing a civil war. Regardless of the first two, I think the third is, at this point and time, demonstrably false, without a dramatic change is tactics.
     
  16. Genghis Khan macrumors 65816

    Genghis Khan

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    #16
    I can't help thinking that the Us propaganda department was working overtime to circulate that photo:rolleyes:

    Put simply, i'm against the Iraq war, and it should end now...there's nothing the US army can do now
     
  17. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #17
    No, they had to stay because they got involved in a quagmire between different German religious-political-ethnic groups, with terrorist fanatics egging them on. For years after WWII ended, thousands more of our soldiers died trying to prevent this, but we just got in deeper and deeper.

    Great argument. :rolleyes:
     
  18. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #18
    Well gosh 'rat, sorry for wanting instant gratification for a war that should never have happened in the first place. Never mind the fact that NOT ONE of the reasons for going there were true either. And never mind the fact that no matter when we leave, there's going to be a civil war. All the groups involved hate each other and have for centuries. Do you really think we're going to fix that in even 10 years or even 20? No way.
     
  19. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #19
    leekohler, it doesn't matter about being wrong in going in. We went. We're there. For all that it would be good to not be there, it's not just the Bushies who foresee a worse situation if we leave any time soon.

    Dislike of war and dislike of our presence in Iraq does not justify denigration of any positive indicators. (I don't want to downplay negatives or over-hype the positives.)

    Without objective and honest reporting of the good as well as the bad, we don't and can't know if things would be better or worse if we left.

    My opinion, FWIW, is that most of the reporting has ignored the good things. Too many first-hand reports from servicemen indicate more good than is being told us via the news.

    'Rat
     
  20. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #20
    Really? Which servicemen? The ones I know say it isn't worth one more drop of American blood. This is coming from a 20 year vet and my cousin who's 21, not to mention a few other friends who've managed to come back in one piece. I have another cousin who just left. Frankly, I'm sick of sending people off for W's lies. That place isn't going to be fixed by the military, period.
     
  21. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #21
    Sorta doubt a "my folks vs. your folks" is worthwhile. I will say I had a very strongly negative attitude about the Korean deal, but history shows it was not a bad thing. I came off occupation duty there in 1955, and would have cheerfully sold you my share of the place for a nickel. Maybe less...

    I wandered off to go through the mail, an hour back. Fareed Zakaria's "World View" column in the Nov 12th issue of Newsweek includes:

    "More U.S. troops have meant better security. But they are not at the heart of current improvements in Iraq. The key is that Petraeus has been willing to do what no American official has until now: accept Iraq for what it is and not what Washington wants it to be. Searching for a stable order, Petreaus has allied himself with whoever, within reason, could produce that order."

    'Rat
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #22
    Like who, most of what I've seen and heard says the opposite.

    It's not what we want. It's merely the reality of what we see. There already is a civil war, and we haven't been helping in the years we've been there. 2007 was the bloodiest of them all BTW.

    Well, you shouldn't have puked in the first place, but if you keep puking, don't be surprised if they ask you to leave. Then get forceful when you don't. Especially if you're making everyone else puke too. They want us gone 'rat. Have for awhile now. The rest of us would like to stop puking too.

    Of course it matters. The same people who got us there for dubious reasons, and have screwed everything up since, are the ones wanting us to stay, saying things are getting better. Just like they have for the last couple of years, despite that not being the case. Pardon our skepticism.

    But you are overplaying the positives and downplaying the negatives, which BTW far outweigh what little good may happen. We aren't trying to downplay anything. We just don't see the progress to justify continued occupation. There is no political process. The best we can hope for is more of the same by continuing to stretch our military beyond it's unsustainable limits.

    There's far more bad than good, but I guess if you go looking, you can find anything to justify your view.

    That's because what little good that does come doesn't justify the bad, which there is still a lot of.

    Again, what about all the bad coming first hand?

    Then why did you bring it up? That's pretty much your whole argument. Some good things are happening, and you're saying you'd heard it from those who've been there. We're not allowed to say we've heard the opposite now because it disagrees with your "folks"? Here are more "folks" who've been there who disagree:

    http://www.alternet.org/asoldierspeaks/65353/
     
  23. Genghis Khan macrumors 65816

    Genghis Khan

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    #23
    i find it hard to believe that any soldier comes back from a warzone and says anything good about it.........
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #24
    If things were going well, they might.
     
  25. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #25
    "We're not allowed to say we've heard the opposite now because it disagrees with your "folks"?"

    No, that was not my intent at all.

    A lot of one's dislike is a function of when the service occurred. My occupation term in Korea wasn't boo-diddly compared to the guys who fought their way out of the Chosin Reservoir--and I knew that at the time. I really doubt that any of those guys ever wanted to do a second tour. I still didn't like Korea, but I knew our presence meant that the North Koreans would not be running the show. To a certain extent, the same sort of evolvement is occurring now in Iraq.

    Guys who served in Iraq from after the first combat phase on into the next couple of years saw a whole different, miserable, and very frustrating deal from what's being seen in these last few months.

    So what guys saw in 2004-2006 is a different picture from this latter part of 2007.

    More and friendlier interaction at the man on the street level with our guys is occurring; that's a fact. Fewer IEDs and other terrorisms; that's a fact. That says that life for the average Iraqi is improving. And now we've helped set up a system where that average Iraqi has the right to bitch and his sheikh has some say in what goes on.

    'Rat
     

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