American Muslims - Are They Loyal Americans?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by OldCorpse, May 22, 2007.

  1. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #1
    Since I just posted about the Christian bomber, I figure it's time I offended the other side - I'm equal opportunity :)

    Now on a serious note - I have been unapologetic on these boards about the importance of controlling our immigration not for ethnic or other reasons, but certainly for cultural reasons. For example, I'm deeply skeptical about anyone who does not believe 100% in our values - and I'm talking anybody, not just Muslims. And I would demand absolute loyalty and a pledge to obey our laws of all immigrants - or your citizenship will be immediately revoked and you will be deported. I try to be absolutely consistent. I demand that we do not interfere in other countries - but I also demand that nobody interfere in our country - we get to have absolute control of our immigration with emphasis on our culture and fitting in with our system. Here's a sobering story, with some sobering statitistics. Let us make it plain that not all Muslims are questionable, any more than any other group (this is not really a Muslim issue as such). They should be treated 100% equal. Food for thought:

    http://www.eontarionow.com/international/2007/05/22/some-american-muslims-view-suicide-attaks-as-ok/

    "Some American Muslims View Suicide Attaks as Ok

    Washington - The non-partisan Pew Research Center has a highly revealing new survey on America’s Muslims.

    It was done utilizing over 55,000 interviews to obtain a national sample of 1,050 Muslims living in the United States. Interviews were conducted in English, Arabic, Farsi and Urdu and the resulting study also draws on Pew’s survey research among Muslims around the world.

    For starters, the Pew report reveals that contrary to CAIR and the MPAC’s outlandish estimates of 7 million Muslims in America, the actual numbers are more like 2.35 million, based on data from this survey and the available Census Bureau data on immigrants’ `nativity and nationality’.

    Here’s the good news - Muslims in America are mainly mainstream and middle class, as compared to Western Europe:

    Here’s the bad news.

    While Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism and consider themselves Americans first and Muslims second by larger percentages than European Muslims, those statistics looked at through the telescope are nothing to celebrate…and indeed, cause for concern among both non-Muslims and moderate Muslims.

    For instance, if only 47% of America’s Muslims feel they owe their first allegiance to the Muslim umma as opposed to America, that is still almost half…around a million Muslims if Pew’s figures are to be believed.

    And only 43% say that Muslims should assimilate with mainstream America and adopt American customs.

    Moreover, the overall trend is away from the present mainstream, as the survey reveals that younger Muslims are much more likely than older Muslims to support Islamic extremism and say that homicide bombings and other terrorist attacks can be justified in `defense of Islam.’ Around 15% of Muslims 30 and under support terrorist attacks on civilians to `defend Islam’, as opposed to around 8% of American Muslims overall…and 60% of Muslims 30 and under think of themselves as Muslims first and Americans second.

    Only a relatively few American Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is about combating Islamic extremism, and only 40% of American Muslims say that al Qaeda and Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. What’s more, the percentage rises significantly with Muslims 30 and younger."
     
  2. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #2
    What? They think it was eskimos?
     
  3. Scarlet Fever macrumors 68040

    Scarlet Fever

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    #3
    Values is a funny concept. Nazis believes the Jews should be exterminated, Christian extremests think anyone who doesn't believe in God should be nailed to the crucifix, and some rock musicians think all pop stars should be burnt at the stake. Values is a form of control; if people don't think the way the government wants them to think, they are "un-australian" or whatever.

    What about Americans who break the laws they have pledged to obey? Do they get their citizenship revoked and deported as well?

    Yeah, some Americans think the suicide attacks were OK as well.

    From the perspectave of the bombers, you can understand why they are pissed. They feel exactly the same way as most Americans do; when someone attacks someones country, the victims are going to be angry at the attackers, so they retaliate. The bombers did it by flying planes into buildings; the Americans did it by invading Iraq and screwing the place up.

    I'm not a supporter of the bombings; i was shocked when it happened. But I was equally shocked when Bush declared war on Iraq. Neither should have happened.

    I make decisions about people based on their personality, not their country of origin or religion. Some Muslims do deserve to be shunned by the community, but then again, so do some Christians, Jews, white people, black people, etc.
     
  4. synth3tik macrumors 68040

    synth3tik

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  5. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #5
    I wonder how this compares with other Americans when we were at war with their countries of origin?
     
  6. xsedrinam macrumors 601

    xsedrinam

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    #6
    I don't know about the other, but this is good to know. Where do I sign up?
     
  7. iMeowbot macrumors G3

    iMeowbot

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    #7
    For a lot of these people, the US is their country of origin, of course. the US made a spectacular mess of things the last time questions like this were floated, hopefully a little common sense can prevail this time around.
     
  8. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #8
    I was born in the US, but that is a topic I gave consideration to when I was younger. It really is important, at a younger age, to determine where your loyalties lie. Leaving them open opens you up to manipulation from both sides. Americans, more than others, are too willing to turn on their own country in the name of ideology - it's one of our major weaknesses.
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    Wow! Whose "values" would we be talking about here? Which laws? And where would these "un-American" infidels be deported to? Would you pass your test? I'm sure there's a spoon ot two missing...
     
  10. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    Do you have any evidence for this claim?
     
  11. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #11
    If things were going better and we still had the support we did after 9/11, I don't think it would be as bad. But because of our failures in Iraq and elsewhere, over 70% of us don't like the way things are going. You come to this country, or your born in this country, you follow the laws. All there is to it. Your values are your own, and we are free to disagree over what those are. I don't want anyone telling me what to think, I wouldn't pretend to want that of others, even if I disagree with them, as long as what they do doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

    But as we've seen, terrorism comes in many colors, so the very question is ridiculous.
     
  12. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #12
    It is really no different than what we are already doing to some extent. When you are immigrating to this country, you have to swear that you are not a communist, don't belong to terrorist organizations etc. I would simply broaden this somewhat. If you espouse racist, homophobic, misogynist views (the latter alone would get 99% of certain religious adherents banned, unless they specifically disavow that aspect of their religion), if you do not believe in democracy, instead you believe in dictatorship or theocracy (regardless of the flavor of the dictatorship, right or left wing, Nazism, Communism etc., and regardless of religion in the case of theocracy). In other words, broad values on which our culture rests. We don't need to get into tiny issues like what flavor of coffee you like :) For laws, certainly the foundation of this system - our constitution.

    As to where deported to? Same as happens today. The way it works today, if you immigrate to this country and you have lied on your application, and it transpires that you were in fact a communist, or Nazi or terrorist, your citizenship is revoked and you are deported to your country of origin. That's how it works today. I see no reason why it would be any different with a few additional criteria such as I outlined.

    THe purpose of this is very simple. Every country has the right to control their immigration as they see fit, even if it strikes others as arbitrary. For example, it is almost impossible to immigrate to Japan. I don't begrudge them their right to control their own immigration process. Why should we not have the same right to control our process. The reason I think a cultural benchmark should be part of it, is because otherwise you get problems like the Netherlands or France have with certain immigrants who refuse to respect the culture and laws of their adopted countries - and you get crap like genital mutilation of girls. I think our women do not deserve to be subject to some barbaric alien cultural norms which reduce them to the status of property. We have the right to reject such applicants.

    It is very fine to be tolerant - and I hope I am. Where the left goes wrong is in tolerating any old practice just because it is "in their culture" - that's fine as long as they keep it in their country, and again, I would not dream of forcing my values on them in THEIR country. But here, it is a different story, and I am strongly against the left on this point. We too have the right to survive. Live and let live should work in both directions. We get to make rules in our country - just as they do in theirs. And immigration is something we have the right to control - there is no universal right of admittance in any country.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    McCarthy still alive and kicking, then?
    Oh really! This is just so much bollocks. Half your poulation would have to be deported if you enforced this. The Thought Police are going to be severely overstretched. You wouldn't need freedom of speech if everybody thought the same. As for the "broad values" on which your culture rests, would these include slavery, land seizure, genocide, unbridled capitalism and religious extremism? Or just the nice ones?
    And what if you were a refugee from a country which outlawed dissent? Clearly the Statue of Liberty would need a new motto.

    "Our women"? "Status of property"? Hmm. This genital mutilation thing seems to be a big issue - dare I say a straw man? - with you. Genital mutilation is not a sine qua non of a liberal immigration policy.

    What makes you think that "the left", whoever they are, are in favourt of genital mutilation and all those other ineffable evils you hint so darkly at? Being liberal does not mean leaving your judgment entirely behind.
     
  14. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #14
    McCarthy conducted witchhunts and accused totally innocent people of being communists. This is not about that. We do not have McCarthy type witchhunts anymore, thankfully. This is about something that we are STILL doing - restricting entrance for communists - we never stopped doing it, and rightly so. We to this day, deport folks who are Nazis - just recently a guy who was a guard at a concentration camp was stripped of his citizenship and deported. Communists are no better than Nazis, and I have no compunction about not letting Nazis in. We ban them today, and rightly so. I would expand that ban on the advocates of theocracies.

    I think you are confused. I was speaking about immigration, not citizens by birth. Like it or not, we make that distinction (even in the constitution, you can't be president unless you were born here). Every single country legally distinguishes between citizens by birth and by immigration. We do too. Again, a native born citizen - even if he holds those abhorrent views - or is a Nazi or Communist etc. - cannot have his citizenship stripped from him. A citizen through immigration can - today. That is true for every country on earth - your citizenship can be revoked under more conditions if you are not native-born. So we won't need your thought police - all views can be represented, and nobody has to deport "half the population". It's different for the immigrants.

    Maybe you think "but that's not fair", or "why should these restrictions apply to immigrants". Good questions. Which have good answers. The reason you do that is because you CONSCIOUSLY shape your immigration policy - every single country does that. You want to have tools which exclude the undesirables (Nazis, Communists etc.) - you can't do anything about the ones born here, but you sure as heck can about more nasties coming in. We have criminals. Do we also have to import them? What's the difference? We find them undesirable. And it is our sacred right to make the criteria as we see fit. We don't need to import brand new racial hatreds from other conflict areas, or brand new flavors of misogyny. We have our hands full with native born jerks.

    So what? I couldn't care less. Let them fry. What, a Nazi is going to be persecuted? Cry me a river. If you are the type of reject I outlined: a race hater, a woman hater, a gay hater, a Nazi, a Communist, a Theocrat, a person violently opposed to our country and constitution - well, I don't care one bit what happens to you. And that motto on the Statue of Liberty never said anything about: give me your murderers, give me your thiefs, give me your racists etc. (not that the motto was ever a law).

    Oh no, my friend, I won't bend on that. YOU may wish to downplay such barbarity as genital mutilation. You may call it "not a big issue". I am proud to state the opposite. And I never said it was the only criterion - that's dishonest. There are plenty of other disgusting practices: for example, honor killings. Maybe you don't think that's an issue either? There are a ton of evil practices in other cultures we simply don't need here. They are welcome to stone their women over THERE, I am not going to be "tolerant" of it here.

    What indeed makes me think that - gee, how about when you poo-pooh gential mutilation claiming I'm making too big an issue of it? Care to tell me how unimportant it is? Why don't you tell that to the victims, about how they're making too big a deal of it? Or how about making ironic statements about my "hinting darkly at all those ineffable evils"? Because honor killings are not that big a deal? How about stoning? Hey, Jews, quit yer dark hinting at ineffable evils of the concentration camps! Let the Nazis in! I'm a bit too sharp to let you get off the hook here - argue as much as you wish, and I'll dog you every step of the way. You are plain wrong, and you should not have made those statements that way, and I won't let go of that. There are unquestionably deeply evil practices the world over, and we have the right to restrict anyone who believes in such things from becoming a naturalized citizen. Again - there is no right to universal admittance anywhere in the world. Rightly so.
     
  15. Queso macrumors G4

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    #15
    I really do not like this idea. It is often those who immigrate to a country that see most clearly what that country is doing wrong, since those that are born to it stop noticing the problems. What you are advocating seems to me a foundation towards cultural stagnation, legislated by an elected dictatorship.
     
  16. Nym macrumors 6502a

    Nym

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    #16
    "American Muslims - Are They Loyal Americans?"

    Why shouldn't they be? I'll tell you this: If I was American I'd be more afraid of "who my country is invading tomorrow" than the Mulsim community.

    The Western is filled with paranoia against all Muslims... it's a shame we consider ourselves "better" than them because we're not, it's an illusion. The only difference is that we kill in a different way, they have plane bombs, we have "military precision air strikes"... in the end, innocent lives are lost, always.

    I firmly believe that fascism and right-extremisms are making a comeback... and if they do.. please someone put me in a ****** spaceship to Jupiter...

    Enough with this prejudice already, doesn't history teaches us something?

    Tolerance? Acceptance? Respect?

    That's where we should be headed.
     
  17. RedTomato macrumors 68040

    RedTomato

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    #17
    I fully agree. And I hope you also hold the same views about male genital mutilation, which is another barbaric practice that I have heard has unfortunately become quite widespread in the USA and the Arab world.
     
  18. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #18
    American values? Jesus Wept,hello the world has moved on,how about human values.This obsession with the nation state and foreigners it's bloody ridiculous.How about sizing people up by their actions not by what piece of dirt they were born on.If you use those criteria you'll find a lot of US citizens lumped in with some of the worst offenders against human values in the world.
     
  19. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #19
    Nice post Peterkro :).
     
  20. RedTomato macrumors 68040

    RedTomato

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    #20
    Thirded!
     
  21. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #21
    And just how many Christians are willing to put country before God?

    To be fair isn't there still a significant portion of the American population who believes Iraq had something to do with 9/11?
     
  22. FFTT macrumors 68030

    FFTT

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    #22
    What exactly is a loyal American?

    Someone who takes an active role in his/her community.
    Someone who works and pays their fair share of the tax burden.
    Someone committed to making sure our children benefit from
    the highest standards in education.
    Someone who cares enough to be politically active and VOTES.
    Someone who lives within the law.
    Someone committed to defend our country and the U.S. Constitution
    against all foes foreign and domestic.

    So how are we doing?
     
  23. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #23
    What? I think you're confusing questioning one's government with loyalty to one's country.
     
  24. OldCorpse thread starter macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #24
    I don't see a contradiction between the basic American values and human values. As to origin, I agree, there should be no discrimination on the basis of origin. At the same time, immigration should be controlled - after all, every nation must make sure they don't import undesirables, such as murderers, thieves, Nazis, Communists, racists, women-haters etc. We have the right to not import people who swear allegiance to abhorrent cultural practices such as honor killings, stoning, infanticide etc. Yes, every country has its own murderers, Nazis, and undesirables etc., but every country also has the right and duty to control their immigration policy to prevent more murderers, marital rapist advocates, Nazis, racists and other undesirables from flooding their country. I don't really see how one can argue sensibly against that.
     
  25. Queso macrumors G4

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    #25
    Basic American values allow people to walk all over others to chase the mighty greenback. Not something you can equate with humanitarian goals.
     

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