American STEM jobs not for American workers.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 1458279, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. 1458279 Suspended

    1458279

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  2. Technarchy macrumors 603

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    I think people in the IT sector have known for years there is a bizarre level of imported labor in a job market where there is a glut of American educated and certified willing to work for pennies just to get some experience and a paycheck.

    When America was in a transitory period as labor died, there may have been a weakness in native talent. Not so anymore. Millennials were born into a world where labor was well known not to be viable work like it was in prior generations. Thousands of STEM students graduate a year...so why are importing labor from places like India. That should be illegal, given it defies the intent of the H1B.
     
  3. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    I remember this happening in the 90's before the DotCom era, and it pissed me off back then. It was a topic of the presidential debates a few cycles ago, not it's almost a forgotten subject.

    In addition to the debt a person gets from over priced colleges, the time spent learning, the income they don't get, there's also the taxes they don't pay and the money not spent in the US.

    These are known as the 'prime' jobs around the world, and we're being sold out by both the government and the companies.

    Makes people think "why bother"

    If the government is willing to screw over it's people on this, why should we trust they are acting in our best interest on other things? What about NAFTA, TPP, etc...
     
  4. juanm, Feb 26, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    Maybe the US should have made good education accessible for all, instead of trying to milk it to the last drop and then blaming others for not having enough STEM talent. Restricting quality higher education to a small portion of the population, and then complaining that companies have to recruit outside for talent, where they have a much larger pool, sounds a lot like self entitlement...

    Also, keep in mind that without this kind of immigration, new tech companies would be founded abroad altogether, so in the end you're still getting something out of it, despite how badly the US has managed higher ed.
     
  5. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    Actually we have a TON of STEM people here. In the link, he talks about that. We've been pumping out STEM people for years now. They just can't get jobs because the companies abuse the system.
    I've looked at government STEM jobs in my area and there isn't a single one for non H1B visa people.

    Listen to what the guy says in the link.
     
  6. juanm, Feb 26, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    A company that wants a top 1% developer, artist, whatever will always go get it anywhere they can find it. It's not just the diploma, it's the talent and ideas that counts (edit: also, yes they are cheaper). This also takes into account that companies are getting ready for a non-US centric world, where outside markets are easier to penetrate with locals on board.

    Some people can only thrive when they are given the position of power in the first place, and will start crying when they realise they are just one more guy, and they can be easily replaced. This guy, to me, sounds pretty much like the article posted the other day about the young girl fired from Yelp (only being an older white male in a suit, and blaming immigrants grants him a spot on Breitbart instead of public shaming).

    You want capitalism? There you have it: companies doing their best to maximise their profits.

    Edit again: and wait until AI and newer technologies make most humans redundant and inefficient at their jobs. IT? Soon computers will it better, self diagnosing everything. Cleaning? Robots will do it better. Building houses? This 3D printed house. Military? There you go. Manufacturing? There
    Newer technology changes the status quo (and its pace will increase faster and faster), and if we want to adopt it, we have to be ready to shift our concepts of society and live with it. The sixties, when the US was great, are long gone. Whoever says they can come back is simply lying.
     
  7. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    I agree with everything except at least 2 things:
    1. the guy was in tech, he not only had the job, but held it for many years and had great work reviews. Not to mention they were ALL let go at the same time. Were all of them just like the english major working at Yelp that complained? Not even close.
    a) they didn't complain about pay on social media
    b) they had the correct degree and proven skills
    c) they had the jobs already, these were replacement workers

    2. Isn't the law clear on this issue? They can't legally do what they did based on the laws already in place.

    We have trade laws for a reason, they stop dumping, fake products, IP ripoffs, etc...

    We have to obey the laws of other nations, they take advantage of our laws and the government allows this. No different than insider trading or fake products, etc...

    If it's the law, the government should obey and enforce the law.
     
  8. Technarchy macrumors 603

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    Very little valuable intellectual property is born in places like India or China. Its Europe, and the USA that lead the world in this area. The top 1% of talent is here. The cheap "talent" is from India.

    India is a hole. All this so called 1% talent should have an OS that can compete with Android, iOS, Mac and Windows, right? What about Twitter and Facebook? Name one piece of 1% IP that has come out of India. Even if you can, multiply that by 1000 for the USA.

    Country
    Number of millionaires

    United States 15.7 million
    United Kingdom 2.4 million
    Japan 2.1 million
    France 1.8 million
    Germany 1.5 million
    China 1.3 million
    Italy 1.1 million
    Canada 984,000
    Australia 961,000
    Switzerland 667,000

    Yeah the USA is basically somalia at this point :rolleyes:

    In the last 25 or so years, anyone that wants to go to school gets to go through a variety of means. There is no restriction. It's all in your head.

    No one is trusting their IP and money to India for kicking off the latest and greatest idea. It's too risky for a fledging company.
     
  9. juanm, Feb 26, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016

    juanm macrumors 65816

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    Yes, an English degree by itself, with nothing more, is pretty much useless nowadays, and people should know better than to pay big money for one. But at the same time, many companies request a degree to even consider hiring someone, so what do you propose someone with no experience or contacts in the industry should do?
    The law might be clear, but with good lawyers you can get around pretty much anything (and maybe pay a fine).
    --- Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016 ---
    Unlike you, I don't count how well a country is doing by it's number of millionaires, but by the quality of life of the average Joe, how many homeless people, etc. If you want stay in denial and just look at the metrics that make you feel good, by all means, go. If the US has 15M millionaires, and the other 285M people struggled, or faced bad prospects, I wouldn't call that a victory. I'd prefer a country with very little millionaires, and 100% people with a good job, and great prospects.

    IP is born, like you say, in the western countries, because there's a series of factors that make it a no-brainer to create a company there (stability, coupled with local workforce, laws, an already established structure, etc) but as we become more and more global, things will change, and being too arrogant and overconfident is what will make the difference between those who will accept the necessity to learn to adapt, and those who won't.
     
  10. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    Well there's two different arguments here. You (Juanm) compared the professional IT worker being replace with another worker using H1B Visa. That's not a valid compare.

    So the second argument is about the english major and getting a good job. That was discussed in the other thread, but basically we have a capitalist system that won't support someone getting any degree they want, and expecting to get a good job.

    Capitalism can't reward failure. If it does, capitalism fails. We either change our system to something else or people have to understand how capitalism works. Before you blame capitalism for the failure, you should consider the free choices she made.
    Again, different subject.

    As far as the law goes, they clearly broke the law and that's that. Most think OJ Simpson killed someone and got away with it... Some of us think that is wrong, others don't.
     
  11. cfedu macrumors 65816

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  12. juanm macrumors 65816

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    Why is it not a valid comparison? From the standpoint of the company, he got replaced by a cheaper worker, bending the law as far as they could (keep in mind I'm playing devil's advocate here).
     
  13. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

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    Source? You have a source that this man was oppressing women and minorities?
    --- Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016 ---
    I listed the reasons above.
    1) he had a degree that applied directly to the job.
    2) he had a track record of good performance on that same job.
    3) he didn't go on social media to complain about his pay.
    4) he actually had the job he wanted to have.
    5) he was replaced via H1B, which is illegal (not just replaced, replace with H1B)

    She:
    1) picked a degree that had nothing to do with the job.
    2) complained about the pay of that job on social media.
    3) she wasn't replaced with an H1B
    4) no laws (that I know of) were broken
    She got fired because she complained about the outcome of her own game plan. It was her game plan. It was also her choice to take the job at Yelp. If she didn't like to offer from Yelp, she should have marketed her job skills elsewhere.
     
  14. thermodynamic Suspended

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    Try ZDNet, CNet, TechRepublic, Computerworld, Infoworld, Forbes... Brietbart's people have been sleeping and unaware of the H1B abuse for roughly a decade by comparison.

    Here's a gem from 2007, anti-piracy Microsoft encouraging piracy, giving source code, and lots of other things:

    http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/07/23/100134488/index.htm

    Other articles from other sources go back before 2007, though...
     
  15. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

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    You don't go to India for quality, you go there to get a project that no one is going to see done with an overkill amount of engineers.
     
  16. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find this being swept under the rug. It's been pissing me off since the early 90's.
    I'm pretty sure Microsoft was one of them that did the exact same thing, I remember reading about it.
     
  17. thermodynamic Suspended

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    It doesn't help that that the US has more unemployed techies, so the excuse we lack any talent no longer flies.

    http://www.fiercecio.com/story/feds-h-1b-workers-outnumber-unemployed-techies/2009-05-31

    It's supposedly improved:

    http://www.stltoday.com/business/lo...cle_29c10363-5e31-547a-b84c-1d3f972c59a6.html

    Oh, note how those without college degrees still get paid the least...

    Bonus:

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/2868428/new-h-1b-bill-will-help-destroy-us-tech-workforce.html

    Even Democrats don't give a bleep about American families...
     
  18. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    Ok, now I'm even madder than I was before.
    I'm going to build my own dam wall around Washington. These people are killing our country.
     
  19. cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/02/21/scaachi-koul-buzzfeed_n_9285946.html

    Just because she said white men need not apply, many white men got upset and called her names. We know that from Anita Sarkeesian's speech at the UN, name calling to women is the same as physical violence, so these men oppressed Scaachi Koul.

    Before you criticize Scaachi Koul statement, remember one can not be sexist towards men nor racist against whites. /s
     
  20. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    Apparently the technology sector is in need of unionizing and to stick it to the sector. It wasn’t that long ago when there was collusion going on among large high-value tech companies to put reigns on poaching, that otherwise drove up the cost of tech salaries.
     
  21. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    Ok, I'm lost, is that the same guy or is it one of the guys that was fired?
    It looks like a different name, am I missing something here?
    --- Post Merged, Feb 26, 2016 ---
    We wouldn't need a union if the businesses would obey the law.

    Much like what goes on in Washington, we need people that obey the laws.
     
  22. cfedu macrumors 65816

    cfedu

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    I was being sarcastic on my first post, you did not catch it. You asked for proof, so I link an article about about sexist racist feminist from buzzfeed on a different topic. Sorry for the confusion
     
  23. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

    1458279

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    Ok, I wasn't sure with all the wild posts around here. It's actually kinda fun here, you don't see too many boards that allow these kinda debates. Now if I can just get everyone to agree with me :D
     
  24. aaronvan Suspended

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    Obama's sinister left hand scuttles crab-like as he signs new legislation increasing the number of H1-B visas at the expense of American workers.

    He uses Orwellian propaganda to obfuscate his direct attack on the American working class:

     
  25. 1458279 thread starter Suspended

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