An Australian was murdered today

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by .Andy, Dec 1, 2005.

  1. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #51
    You do not have the right to kill the person. The state's power "is derived from the people." You are correct that an individual does not have the right to self-help in seeking redress from crimes committed against them. To allow that would result in anarchy and chaos as each person sought vengance for a percieved ill. But, that does not address the issue of the DP.

    Your mistake is that you have treated the action of the state as being one of acting on the behalf of the victim. Rather, the state acts on behalf of society. There are many ways you can look at the imposition of justice. It can be restorative or preventative. The DP acts under both models. It restores society to equilibruim by equating the punishment with the crime. Any lesser punishment is difficult to justify. For taking a life (especially pre-meditated), can a person ever repay society? Remember it is not the victim that must be repayd, it is society. As a preventative measure, a person who has committed a crime must be punished sufficiently to deter others from committing the same crime. The efficiency of the DP is debated, but I think that much of the reason that is has lost its efficacy is that it is not imposed properly. Trial costs often lead prosecutors to accept deals of life w/o parole when it is clear that a person is guilty. Additionally, exceptions are made for several groups of people, including youth, who have made the concious decision to kill. On top of that, I don't see the deterrance in knowing that even if you get the DP, you are going to live for another 25-30 years and have significant control over your time (the lengthy appeals process) and place (isolation means other inmates can't touch them) of death.
     
  2. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #52
    IIRC, the US allows capital punishment for extreme cases of drug violations (something on the order of possessing $1M worth of contraband). Not to mention espionage.
     
  3. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #53
    Your model of "restoring equilibrium" and "repaying society", though I'll admit is craftfully constructed, is a ruse.

    Just call it by its real name: cold, callous, simple revenge.

    A modern civilised society does not exist to engage in the primitive pursuit of settling scores.
     
  4. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #54
    I'm know, and most of the world does not approve of that either. And hanging? That is so 19th century.
     
  5. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #55
    Yep - some people don't deserve to live. But even those people deserve to have an opinion. :p :cool:

    Thanks, this is so much fun! :D
     
  6. eva01 macrumors 601

    eva01

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    #56
    I have always wanted to go to Singapore. I think i may take a months vacation to Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore.
     
  7. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #57
    Like I said, it is indeed a great place. If you do go, PM me and I can let you know some of the sites to see, etc. :) Oh, and make sure you book on Singapore Airlines - hands down the best airline in the world - the best I've ever flown on (and I've flown on a lot). :cool:
     
  8. eva01 macrumors 601

    eva01

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    #58
    Interesting about the airline. My favorite one is Lufthansa
     
  9. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #59
    Singapore Airlines "economy" class puts some airlines' first class to shame. Blankets, pillows, slippers, overnight bags (toothbrushes, etc.), menus for your meals prepared by gourmet chefs (not your standard airline food!), fully on-demand audio and video system (I enjoyed playing chess against other people on the plane!), nice bathrooms (towels, lotion, kleenex, flowers, etc.), free drinks, free everything, amazing customer service - I could go on and on. :cool:
     
  10. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #60
    No anesthesia? I'm going to start an airline that fills the cabin with NO2 and retire on the profits.

    You board the plane, take your seat, take off, pass out, wake up, land and leave. It's like you never flew.

    All this flowers, food, slippers and chess stuff is just taking the sting off the biggest problem with flying: consciousness.
     
  11. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    #61
    When you travel, you are a guest in someone else's country, and you need to respect the rules. When i was in France, nobody seemed to ever follow any rules, except me. They'd smoke and eat on trains, break traffic rules, etc. But I followed the rules, because I was a guest there, and as a traveller, I am also representing my country and my culture to some extent.

    Singapore is a wonderful country. I lived there for two years and still visit frequently. It does not feel like a police state at all. People do have a lot of fun there, and of course they drink and have sex and do all the things normal people do. (And yes, they chew gum too. You just can't spit it out on the sidewalk.)

    But there are things they don't do. They don't commit crimes against people and property (including vandalism and litter). And they don't do drugs. If you break those rules, you are crossing a line in the sand. That's just the way it is, and you should expect to be punished when in that country. And no, I don't agree with the death penalty personally, but I sure as hell respect it.
     
  12. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #62

    Wel, if you have to spend 17 hours on a plane, (and unconsciousness isn't an option) this is the way you want to do it - trust me... ;) :cool:
     
  13. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #63
    Well said. And as I said above, I found Singapore to be one of the safest, friendliest, cleanest larger centers which I've visited in this great world. People not trafficking drugs, people not committing crimes, like you say - it's actually quite a nice environment to be in. :cool:
     
  14. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #64
    Singapore is next on our list after Emirates (my wife really wants to see the Dubai airport). But, I that I heard last year that Malasyia had done a wonderful job of improving and coming close to overtaking Singapore in terms of quality. Anybody know if that's true?
     
  15. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #65
    i am not going the join the debate on whether capital punishment is right or wrong...i vote democratic and i am a born again christian and i believe abortion is wrong...so you could come up with your own conclusions ;)

    those endless rounds of appeals are so deeply wrapped up in cannon (ecclesiastical law), common law, and within the arc of current and former commonwealth nations' constitutions/charters/bill of rights like singapore, the former nation of hong kong, india, canada, australia etc...

    we must keep the appeals process going unless we want to have an autocrat born into a position of authority, regardless of mental state, and killing all political opponents on trumped up charges

    commonwealth countries are so tied in, even muslim and bhuddist ones, with cannon law and common law (and the appeals system) and it has worked for them and none of those countries have felt a need to change to a medieval system of law

    i have a friend who is a strong conservative from the old school and though he truly believes that muderers of the first degree should be put to death, he doesn't believe in the death penalty because of the cost of the appeals process and any cost that is too much turns his conservative stomach so he is anti death penalty...and being highly educated and having fought for our nation in the korean war, he knows that those soldiers fought and died for the constitution and our current (perhaps liberal) rule of law

    so before you want to end the appeals process and thus our rule of law in the united states, uk, canada, australia, and 100 other nations, come take a walk at arlington national monument and tell all those soldiers that they died in vain...acutally spit on their graves because that is what you are doing by asking to remove or repeal the appeals process (or slicing up any disproportionate portion of our constitution)

    i feel strongly about the death penalty, or abortion, but not as strongly as i do about the constitution, common law, rule of law, and the basic decency that it tries to protect (btw...i am studying constitutional law so i have the "federalist papers" by my bedside and the bible hoping one day i could make a good solicitor

    getting rid of the appeals process would do more damage to our country than a rogue terrorist nation with an a-bomb or an endless supply of smallpox...heck, without the appeals process, it would make things ripe for terrorists, inside and outside of our country, to waltz into positions of power

    be careful what you wish for, clayj
     
  16. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #66
    Could be true, I hear they have a very excellent airline as well. Cathay Pacific is quite well run as well.

    Emirates would be cool, it is another place on my (very long) list of places to see.... :cool:
     
  17. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #67
    Now that would be some wicked ass capital punishment! ;)
     
  18. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #68
    still used in church disputes in the uk and other countries... but with any modern form of law, including canon law, one has the right to defend themselves if wrongly accused of any crime, thus the appeal

    clayj, knowingly or unknowingly, wants to bring us back to the dark ages

    actually, i should buy him a large wooden club so he could hit a woman over the head, and then drag her back into his cave to be a domestic servant ;)
     
  19. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #69
    Revenge is something that is done because of emotion. The reason that the victim is removed from the equation, and that the law is what should govern, is that society is better equipped to view events more objectively. A lynch mob that kills a man because of an accusation is seeking revenge. A court of law that make a fair and impartial decision is restoring society. If you belive that the court is not fair or impartial, then we have a different issue. The case here doesn't look to me to be unfair or partial. The law has been established, all are made knowledgable of it, and all are punished accordingly.

    I think the trafficking of drugs is central to this problem. If drugs weren't responsible for such a large amount of other crimes (in addition to direct deaths), one could argue that the punisment was too harsh. But, in addition to killing those who use it, drugs lead to desperation for more drugs leading to crimes including theft, robbery, assault, and murder.
     
  20. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #70
    come on, counselor...is that what you would present in moot court in class? ;)
     
  21. ~Shard~ macrumors P6

    ~Shard~

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    #71
    As I pirate, I approve of cannon law. Argh matey! :D
     
  22. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #72
    Does the lynch mob not also "restore society"? It's accomplishing the same ends.

    What exactly does "restore society" mean, anyway?
     
  23. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #73
    Actually, in a moot court situation I would probably take the time to remind the court that there is great precedent for the DP in the US. But that is irrelevant to the task at hand of understanding your dependence on the appeals process for your stance. You say that the appeals process is the foundation of our society and that without it we would risk subjecting ourselves to tyranny and persecution. Additionally, we would let the terrorists win.

    Unfortunate for us, there is no reason to have an appeals court. We are lucky that Congress chose to establish courts of appeals and that they haven't decided to revoke them. Also nice of Congress is their allowance of the Supreme Court to decide many cases by not holding them to their original jurisdiction. While the founders were not tyrants, nor supporters fo tyrrany, they worried about the role fo the courts. I don't believe they expected us to ever become the litigous society that we are and I don't believe that they expected that the DP would take so long to enforce.
     
  24. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #74
    restore society is a term from civil procedure and does not relate in the way he stated it in the context of criminal law

    society is a larger term not pronounced on an individual, but to society, and in the context of criminal law, a lawyer/barrister can render his services "pro bono publico"..LAT: the public good or welfare (Barron's L.D. 5ed.)
     
  25. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #75
    he he, ever heard of the federalist papers, or the anti federalist papers?? ;)...you better believe our founding fathers knew our society would become litigous

    the infighting, even between allies for the same cause, in the late 18th century, brings up the bile of today's headlines with the infighting that plagues our political parties

    greed, lust, envy, insult, and good old fashioned "bs" was what was in the writings, and perhaps the minds, of our founding fathers

    btw...i do think they were still great ;)
     

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