Another Nail In Creationism's Coffin?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. skunk, Feb 21, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011

    skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9401000/9401945.stm

    So, there goes yet another theoretical distinction between man and the rest of "creation". All we need now is to find an ape with religion...
     
  2. freeny macrumors 68020

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    #2
  3. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #3
    Hairless, I take it. :)
     
  4. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #4
    You would be correct in that assumption
     
  5. imac/cheese macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    I am not really sure about what this means...
     
  6. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #6
    You have to approach this with logic, not faith.
     
  7. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    Well, for a start it means that self-awareness is not an exclusively human trait. Those who rely on a fundamental dividing line between god-created humans and god-created apes to maintain their vision of a humanity created separately from and above all other animals are standing on thinner and thinner ice. The alleged "soul" begins with self-awareness, and it becomes ever clearer that self-awareness is part of a full spectrum of evolutionary possibilities, not a special gift bestowed exclusively on mankind because of mankind's unique rôle in the cosmos.
     
  8. imac/cheese macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Due to my confusion, I decided to simply pass on the topic. I didn't want to delay my ability to post in other MacRumors threads...
     
  9. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #9
    Very interesting topic. Of course, my understanding of their research is very cursory, but I'm wondering if there is perhaps a distinction to be made.

    To start, there would be a divide between objective between a human and monkey participants. The humans don't have a clear reward for performing well, so mankind's tendency of noncommittal in uncertainty is displayed.

    However, in the case of the monkeys, they have a clear goal of obtaining the treat. They also have the ability to remember the repercussions of failing to perform the task correctly. They then learn that passing is the quickest way to get the most treats. Now, where I begin to question this is how unique this self-doubt is.

    For instance, a young cat will hesitate at a jump it is unsure it can make. Through experience, it will learn what jumps it can and cannot make. In some instances, there may still be some jumps that the cat refuses to undertake, unless placed in a situation where the risk is clearly outweighed by the reward (capture by a predator vs. escape).

    Is there necessarily a divide here between a task that is physical as opposed to mental? Of course, the cat undergoes a thinking process to evaluate its chances of success. The monkey does the same thing, except this thinking process is most of the task in and of itself. It is still weighing its relative inability to correctly perceive its environment (distance vs. density).

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure I could come up with a better experiment even if the answer to the above was in the negative.
     
  10. imac/cheese macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    In all seriousness, I have never been the type of creationist that believed humans were the only self-aware animal. Nor am I the type of creationist that denies evolution. I don't think that the bible is definitive on either of those subjects.
     
  11. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #11
    Your criticism is not without merit. Further experiments might clarify any distinction.

    If humans are not the only self-aware animal, then what is "original sin" all about? Isn't the concept at root a by-product of self-awareness?
     
  12. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #12
    I suspect so. I have to wonder if pin-pointing the source of our consciousness will lead to any kind of sect of belief that we are on the path to creating an Übermensch, but I then have to remind myself that I've been reading too many sci-fi novels :eek:
     
  13. imac/cheese macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    Biblically, it seems to me that Adam was self-aware before the fall so I don't think self-awareness is realted to original sin. The awareness that came from eating of the tree of knowledge was a lot more than self-awareness.
     
  14. neko girl macrumors 6502a

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  15. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

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    #15
    Am I the only one who see this as a pointless bashing thread and would call it a trolling thread?
    While the study is interesting to read about it completed got ruined by the pointless bashing in the thread title by Skunk.
     
  16. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    You are welcome to disagree, but you don't have to be rude about it.
     
  17. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #17
    It's an interesting topic with a catchy title.
     
  18. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #18
    And you thread title was not rude and a trolling title? I was calling this out for what BS it really was.


    Topic is interesting but the title the tread title to me ruined it and turned it from a good topic to a trolling thread.
     
  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn

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    #19

    IMO, we have way too many people in PRSI complaining and reporting posts. If you don't like it, move on.
     
  20. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

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    #20
    I never reported it but I do think it is a problem and trolling threads like this should be called out. I see it happen to anything 5P post some of it often time boarder line trolling and I see him called out on it all the time (no need for me to say anything) but on the flip side you see something that has a title to bash and twist it no one cares to bash it. I was expecting when I first read the post hmm this should be something interesting but instead I see a post that has nothing to do with Creationism other than to bash it. The evidence submitted has very little if anything to do with creationism.

    As for the post I feel it belong more in the thread are animals lives same value as a humans.
     
  21. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    If you had bothered to read the first few comments, you would have understood my reasoning. I believe I made valid observations, and that they relate quite logically to Creationism. I also answered those who argued their case, in a civil and reasonable fashion. What is a pity is your own apparent inability or unwillingness to engage with the subject other than by complaining pointlessly, accusing me of trolling (which I have not done) and comparing my thread, ridiculously, with Fivepoint's inflammatory efforts.

    Either participate or don't, but just whingeing does not contribute anything useful.
     
  22. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

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    #22
    So I'm assuming that your an educated person.

    You read a book, about an imaginary person in the sky shaping the first man from mud, and his wife from a rib bone.

    And while reading this you simultaneously are aware of hundreds of mythological stories which exist outside of the bible (Dragons, Witches, Wizards, Vampires, Zeus, Mount Olympus, The Mormons, Scientology etc.). All stories I am willing to bet you discredit without much thought.

    Yet you still believe? Even though believing forces you to twist the literal meaning of your book in order to accept it while still being an educated person.

    And still you believe?
     
  23. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #23
    And people wonder why Athies are hard to deal with.

    They are often times just if not more closed minded than anyone who believes in a religion. First thing about the Bible you need to learn is it is full of symbolism. Not hard to work from that to understand shaping from mud so to speak.

    Remember Gods Time is not the same as our time. 1 day to God could easily be eons for us.
     
  24. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    Not to get too OT with this, but, whatever the truth surrounding Jesus, it seems to me that there is far too clear a lineage between the gods of Sumer, Babylon, Canaan and Israel/Judah to ignore. It really does seem perverse to ignore the commonality of myths and deities between these civilisations, and if one does not ignore it, then the notion of any god(s) having selected the Hebrews and having "disappeared" all of their competition, seems patently absurd. The fact that Jesus reportedly went along with this obvious plagiarism does tend to invalidate either his reported claims or his assumed omniscience.

    Or the whole thing could be yet another retelling of an ancient creation and flood myth, just like all the other very similar stories to which, for some unfathomable reason, you attach no credence whatsoever.
     
  25. appleguy123 macrumors 603

    appleguy123

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    #25
    Is there a color-coded Bible that will allow me to see what is a symbol and what are the actual thoughts of the iron age desert people? It would be of great help.
     

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