Another thing Trump is clueless on: The Middle East


citizenzen

macrumors 65816
Mar 22, 2010
1,433
11,628
Trump thinks he can fix the Israel/Palestine conflict.
“Maybe not as difficult as people have thought”
which can only mean he has no idea what he's talking about.

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/03/trump-is-certain-hell-bring-peace-to-the-middle-eastern-maybe-not-as-difficult-as-people-have-thought/
Literally, everything trump has claimed would be soooo easy hasn't proven to be as remotely easy as he imagined.

I'm starting to think that he needs to spend all of his time at the golf course.
 

vrDrew

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2010
1,317
11,834
Midlife, Midwest
American arrogance has led to the mess in the M-E, no matter who has done it.
The blame for the problems between Israel and the Palestinians cannot be laid solely, or squarely, at America's doorstep.

The fact of the matter is that the modern State of Israel came about due to mass immigration of Jewish refugees who were the survivors of Hitler's Holocaust. Hundreds of thousands of these people moved to Palestine, starting in the early 1920s, and peaking in the years immediately after WWII. These immigrants used means both fair and foul to oust the Palestinian people who had lived there - in the majority - for more than a thousand years.

Jews emigrated from Europe due to the failures of Western Democracies to contain or restrain Hitler. Jews emigrated from the former Soviet Union, following the dissolution of that country, due to systemic anti-Semitism in wider Russian society. European and (to a lesser extent) US acceptance of the founding of Israel under those circumstances was, to a large measure, conditioned by collective guilt at allowing millions of Jews to perish.

The United States has, for the last seventy years, attempted to play the part of an honest broker in finding a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian-Israeli struggle. It was the United States that brought the two sides together, at Camp David (which brought peace between Israel and Egypt) and at Oslo - which mapped out a path to statehood for the Palestinians.

So: No. The Israel/Palestinian issue is not wholly the fault of the United States. There is guilt aplenty to go around.
 
Last edited:

AsherN

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2016
434
1,735
Canada
The founding of the State of Israel predates the UN resolution and the Shoa. It goes back, as a recognition, at least to the Balfour Declaration.

There has never been a Palestine, never been a Palestinian people. The Arabs living there have always considered themselves either Syrians or Jordanians. Prior to 1947, references to Palestinians always meant the Jews in the British Mandate. The term fell out of use until the mid 60s when Arrafat, the Egyptian terrorist, needed some justification for his acts.

It's complex and not easily solved. But hey, if Trump wants at it, I'm up for a few laughs.
 

thekev

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2010
6,667
1,740
The United States has, for the last seventy years, attempted to play the part of an honest broker in finding a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian-Israeli struggle. It was the United States that brought the two sides together, at Camp David (which brought peace between Israel and Egypt) and at Oslo - which mapped out a path to statehood for the Palestinians.

So: No. The Israel/Palestinian issue is not wholly the fault of the United States. There is guilt aplenty to go around.
You can't be a neutral party if you're officially allied with one particular side.
 
  • Like
Reactions: steve knight

Zenithal

macrumors G3
Sep 10, 2009
9,014
10,099
I reckon at this point it'd be far easier to write a list of subjects Trump is knowledgeable about.
 

vrDrew

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2010
1,317
11,834
Midlife, Midwest
You can't be a neutral party if you're officially allied with one particular side.
There is no formal treaty of alliance between the United States and Israel.

We have mutual defense treaties that cover nations such as The Phillipines; Slovenia; and Albania. Meaning that if any of those countries were militarily attacked, we would be legally obligated to go to their aid.

Not Israel.

We have numerous military, diplomatic, and trade agreements with Israel. Covering such things as the status of US military persons on-leave while in Israel, and memoranda of understanding relating to weapons and technology transfer. But we have similar documents with all sorts of countries, including many in Africa and Latin America.
 

thekev

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2010
6,667
1,740
There is no formal treaty of alliance between the United States and Israel.

We have mutual defense treaties that cover nations such as The Phillipines; Slovenia; and Albania. Meaning that if any of those countries were militarily attacked, we would be legally obligated to go to their aid.

Not Israel.

We have numerous military, diplomatic, and trade agreements with Israel. Covering such things as the status of US military persons on-leave while in Israel, and memoranda of understanding relating to weapons and technology transfer. But we have similar documents with all sorts of countries, including many in Africa and Latin America.
That's a fair point, but it's partly due to the nature of those treaties. The US and members of NATO wanted to limit the proliferation of nuclear powers. Those treaties are necessary to ensure such things. This wouldn't be possible with Israel.
 

LizKat

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2004
5,324
29,834
Catskill Mountains
Start a pool for when. I'm in for $1 on Tue 9 May.
Too broke to play. I put four bucks at even odds on enough on-fence Republicans keeping the House from passing AHCA bill. Silly me. At least all I had on me at the time was the four bucks. I had thought it was a decent bet.

I think your date is about right though. But who knows. Trump has been known to discover the other side of some coins the same day he flipped one in the morning and called heads.

Literally, everything trump has claimed would be soooo easy hasn't proven to be as remotely easy as he imagined.

I'm starting to think that he needs to spend all of his time at the golf course.
I could go with that except for unease about who's watching Bannon when the big dog's off the porch. Trump seems to have had an epiphany of some sort about that guy ever since having inadvertently signed the papers that briefly made Bannon a principal at NSC meetings. That's good, but I don't know who's supposed to keep an eye on Bannon's moves these days. Priebus? Sigh. At least the NSC's principals makeup has been reverted.

My concern about Israel these days starts and certainly doesn't end with Trump's pick of David Friedman as envoy. It's not a signal that Palestinians would take as a friendly overture in any offer we made to broker reopened negotiations. The guy is or was on the board of a settlement endeavor, and has called the two-state solution by terms like "scam" and "illusion", none of which sounds particularly like he could position the USA as honest broker. We can signal support for Israel's interests without also signaling to Arabs that we're in Bibi's pocket, but that's not what Trump did.
 

AsherN

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2016
434
1,735
Canada
My concern about Israel these days starts and certainly doesn't end with Trump's pick of David Friedman as envoy. It's not a signal that Palestinians would take as a friendly overture in any offer we made to broker reopened negotiations. The guy is or was on the board of a settlement endeavor, and has called the two-state solution by terms like "scam" and "illusion", none of which sounds particularly like he could position the USA as honest broker. We can signal support for Israel's interests without also signaling to Arabs that we're in Bibi's pocket, but that's not what Trump did.
The part about the 2 state solution is concerning. Especially because that is what most Israelis favour. A one State solution is untennable. You would either have to restrict the rights of the Arab population, or Israel would become just another Arab-only Islamic State within a couple generations.
 

Huntn

macrumors demi-god
May 5, 2008
17,039
16,521
The Misty Mountains
Literally, everything trump has claimed would be soooo easy hasn't proven to be as remotely easy as he imagined.

I'm starting to think that he needs to spend all of his time at the golf course.
He sells, spins, misleads, and regularly wears his ignorance in his sleeve, without a clue that he's not fooling us, his ego is magnificent. :oops:
 

stylinexpat

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2009
1,583
2,436