Another thing Trump is clueless on: The Middle East

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by poloponies, May 3, 2017.

  1. poloponies macrumors 68030

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    #1
  2. samcraig macrumors P6

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    Within a week "Who knew the problems in the Middle East were so complicated?"
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #3
    American arrogance has led to the mess in the M-E, no matter who has done it.
     
  4. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    Literally, everything trump has claimed would be soooo easy hasn't proven to be as remotely easy as he imagined.

    I'm starting to think that he needs to spend all of his time at the golf course.
     
  5. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    no frigging DUHHHHH
     
  6. vrDrew, May 3, 2017
    Last edited: May 3, 2017

    vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    The blame for the problems between Israel and the Palestinians cannot be laid solely, or squarely, at America's doorstep.

    The fact of the matter is that the modern State of Israel came about due to mass immigration of Jewish refugees who were the survivors of Hitler's Holocaust. Hundreds of thousands of these people moved to Palestine, starting in the early 1920s, and peaking in the years immediately after WWII. These immigrants used means both fair and foul to oust the Palestinian people who had lived there - in the majority - for more than a thousand years.

    Jews emigrated from Europe due to the failures of Western Democracies to contain or restrain Hitler. Jews emigrated from the former Soviet Union, following the dissolution of that country, due to systemic anti-Semitism in wider Russian society. European and (to a lesser extent) US acceptance of the founding of Israel under those circumstances was, to a large measure, conditioned by collective guilt at allowing millions of Jews to perish.

    The United States has, for the last seventy years, attempted to play the part of an honest broker in finding a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian-Israeli struggle. It was the United States that brought the two sides together, at Camp David (which brought peace between Israel and Egypt) and at Oslo - which mapped out a path to statehood for the Palestinians.

    So: No. The Israel/Palestinian issue is not wholly the fault of the United States. There is guilt aplenty to go around.
     
  7. chown33 macrumors 604

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    Start a pool for when. I'm in for $1 on Tue 9 May.
     
  8. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    The founding of the State of Israel predates the UN resolution and the Shoa. It goes back, as a recognition, at least to the Balfour Declaration.

    There has never been a Palestine, never been a Palestinian people. The Arabs living there have always considered themselves either Syrians or Jordanians. Prior to 1947, references to Palestinians always meant the Jews in the British Mandate. The term fell out of use until the mid 60s when Arrafat, the Egyptian terrorist, needed some justification for his acts.

    It's complex and not easily solved. But hey, if Trump wants at it, I'm up for a few laughs.
     
  9. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    You can't be a neutral party if you're officially allied with one particular side.
     
  10. mac_in_tosh macrumors regular

    mac_in_tosh

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    So nothing on the part of the people living there has contributed to the mess?
     
  11. Zenithal macrumors 68040

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    I reckon at this point it'd be far easier to write a list of subjects Trump is knowledgeable about.
     
  12. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    There is no formal treaty of alliance between the United States and Israel.

    We have mutual defense treaties that cover nations such as The Phillipines; Slovenia; and Albania. Meaning that if any of those countries were militarily attacked, we would be legally obligated to go to their aid.

    Not Israel.

    We have numerous military, diplomatic, and trade agreements with Israel. Covering such things as the status of US military persons on-leave while in Israel, and memoranda of understanding relating to weapons and technology transfer. But we have similar documents with all sorts of countries, including many in Africa and Latin America.
     
  13. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    Completely their problem ,we should NOT be arming rebels or propping up dictators one way or another
     
  14. IronWaffle macrumors 6502

    IronWaffle

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    As this thread proves, this should be a pretty easy thing to solve. True, Trump is clueless but, fortunately, this project has been thoughtfully outsourced to his son-in-law, the stealth expert in.... EVERYTHING.
     
  15. appleisking macrumors 6502a

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    Well blank books do exist so why not?
     
  16. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    That's a fair point, but it's partly due to the nature of those treaties. The US and members of NATO wanted to limit the proliferation of nuclear powers. Those treaties are necessary to ensure such things. This wouldn't be possible with Israel.
     
  17. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #17
    Too broke to play. I put four bucks at even odds on enough on-fence Republicans keeping the House from passing AHCA bill. Silly me. At least all I had on me at the time was the four bucks. I had thought it was a decent bet.

    I think your date is about right though. But who knows. Trump has been known to discover the other side of some coins the same day he flipped one in the morning and called heads.

    I could go with that except for unease about who's watching Bannon when the big dog's off the porch. Trump seems to have had an epiphany of some sort about that guy ever since having inadvertently signed the papers that briefly made Bannon a principal at NSC meetings. That's good, but I don't know who's supposed to keep an eye on Bannon's moves these days. Priebus? Sigh. At least the NSC's principals makeup has been reverted.

    My concern about Israel these days starts and certainly doesn't end with Trump's pick of David Friedman as envoy. It's not a signal that Palestinians would take as a friendly overture in any offer we made to broker reopened negotiations. The guy is or was on the board of a settlement endeavor, and has called the two-state solution by terms like "scam" and "illusion", none of which sounds particularly like he could position the USA as honest broker. We can signal support for Israel's interests without also signaling to Arabs that we're in Bibi's pocket, but that's not what Trump did.
     
  18. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    The part about the 2 state solution is concerning. Especially because that is what most Israelis favour. A one State solution is untennable. You would either have to restrict the rights of the Arab population, or Israel would become just another Arab-only Islamic State within a couple generations.
     
  19. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #19
    He sells, spins, misleads, and regularly wears his ignorance in his sleeve, without a clue that he's not fooling us, his ego is magnificent. :oops:
     
  20. stylinexpat macrumors 6502a

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    At least the rest of the world is up to date on things and not as biased at the Trump picked administration is. Latest ruling was a big positive for Palestine. Trump will soon realize that he may be able to pick biased cabinet members but he can not pick biased cabinet members and leaders for all other countries in this world.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...eritage-christian-muslim-united-a7717046.html
     

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