Anti-Semitism in Europe

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by A.Goldberg, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Boston
    #1
    I recently saw this article from the DailyMail.co.uk which includes a compilation street videos of Anti-Semitic actions taken again Jews walking in European cities. Much like the video of the Jewish man in France, the woman in NYC, the gay man in NYC, the videos record a person simply walking down the street.

    While the video shows acts of Anti-Semitism, it also shows cities with no problems. There are also some friendly comments offered to the individuals as well. The article offers a breakdown of each persons' experience. I'm not too sure about the areas in all of the cities these are filmed, but perhaps someone could comment.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-spat-abused-stalked-happens-Copenhagen.html

    All these videos show to me that intolerance and disrespect is everywhere, not just of Jews but of any minority in a specific area. I don't believe this is anything new, but it's amazing that in 2015 we still have adults that act like this.
     
  2. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
  3. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    #3
    Racism is always stupid. The daily mail publishes quite a few absurd articles, so I hope this is one of them.
     
  4. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    #4
    Like I said in the previous thread, I don't put much stock into those videos. The one guy in France walked around for 10 hours, and got 3 minutes of footage of people being anti-Semitic wankers. I'd love to know what happened during the other 9 hours and 57 minutes. Probably nothing notable. If you have 10 hours of video to cut down to a few minutes, you can cut it to fit your agenda, no matter what it is. You could cut down the 10 hours to show 3 minutes of him walking around without anyone saying anything to show that France doesn't have an Antisemitism problem.

    And also like I said in the other thread, it's not a European problem or a Muslim problem. I guarantee you I wouldn't have to wander too far from where I live to get the same reactions if I walked around wearing a yamaka and tallit, except it would be coming from Christians instead of Muslims.
     
  5. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Location:
    New Jersey, United States
    #5
    Christians- aren't those the ones that worship the dying bleeding Jew nailed to a piece of wood and yet have been violently anti-Semitic more than a few times in history?
     
  6. Cox Orange, Apr 25, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #6
    @ iBlazed:
    to be fair, it has become less from the "christian" side in recent years, where secularisation eases the minds of people ;)

    There is a documentation by a young jewish Israeli about antisemitism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hE5Sr4YdgI (title: Defamation). I find it a bit one sided and the somewhat Michael Moore style is certainly not everybody's taste, but maybe that is part of the jewish humor, I don't know. I would also wish he had visited some western european countries, but the european jews were probably not strict enough leaning in one or the opposite direction ;)


    EDIT: for clarification, with "one-sided" I meant, that the author of the documentary makes it look as if anti-semitism was all made up and I wished he would also show some real, existing cases of anti-semitism, because they do exist. I linked the documentary though (though it is one-sided), because it is one other part of the whole picture. It also fitted to the commentary about the Daily Mail being crap.
     
  7. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Location:
    The Far Horizon
    #7
    I do not deny that - for a variety of reasons - a number of proto-nationalistic, xenophobic, ugly, seething, unpleasantly racist (and, in some cases repressively anti-semitic) parties, vehicles and groups exist in parts of Europe (both east and west). And some of them have been attracting an embarrassing degree of support in the polls.

    However, unfortunately, and regrettably, it must be said, that The Daily Mail is not a source that I would consider taking seriously as a credible primary source on anything.
     
  8. Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    #8

    Pam Gellar, look her up, it answers all your questions about anti-semitism.:p
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Geller
     
  9. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    #9
    Is Europe not where 6 millions jews were cleansed to make way for the master race?

    I guess old habits die hard.
     
  10. caesarp, Apr 26, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #10
    Are Jews a race? I thought it's a religion? Nonetheless, to the extent any anti-Semitism comes from Christians it is absurd. As they bow, pray and worship to a jew hanging on a cross. So by natural extension, you would think they would go out of their way to be extra special nice to jews in real life. Shouldn't they worship REAL Jews too, as the religion that spawned their religion? Go figure.
     
  11. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #11
    Why comment, when you are uninformed? The upcomming of right wing parties in the last two years (primarily not in Germany) are because of demagogues speaking about muslims, not jews!!!

    I don't deny that there is anti-semitism in Europe, but far less than you'd think. When you are talking about habits: Germany is the most popular country for Jewish Israelis to live in. It is also considered the safest place by most of them, today. The world has changed since the 1950s.
    This year is 50 years of German-Israeli friendship. So don't talk about habits, when you don't know about the history of both states after WWII. I would also like to show you the list of interactions of both states on governmental and civil level (young people connect everywhere on the world and Germans and Israelis are no exception, they often can't even relate to hate topics anymore, because they see the world as a place of free travel and opportunity).
    It depends. Jewish communities are devided like Christian and Muslim groups. Some are more strict and others are less strict. Between orthodox and totally secular Jews there are some shades of grey.
    Besides this European Jews tend to call themself French of Jewish believe, Germans of Jewish believe etc. - while US Jews call themselves American Jews.
    As a German I learned in school that it is a religion and that the "race" argument was a label used/created by the Nazis. A US Jew told me, that American Jews are often astonished and even pissed off, when Germans (or secular people) ask: "so you don't practise, why then do you call yourself Jewish?". She said that Germans don't get, that being jewish has to do with bloodline and you are only a Jew, when your mother was a Jew. There are no converts allowed. Hence the rules for marrying are very strict, because they don't want to let their jewish blood get unclean due to mixture with non-Jews. The historical reason behind it is to be sure that your tribe will exist and not distinguish over time simply by birthlines with every generation. In Wasshington and Belgium there are databases where Orthodox Jews can test themselves and see, if they are too close relatives so that they don't get disabled children. I don't know, if you know, but if people don't mix, their DNA gets worse and worse from generation to generation, that's why so many aristocratic european houses have a history of diseases caused by genetic defects and getting children with too close relatives. This is why neither the Nazis nor the Jews would actually make their "races" better, if they shut themselves off from other gene pools.

    You would think that the different interpretations by Jews themselves come from them being Jewish. I come to think that the culture they grew up in has a heavier impact on how they see themselves as Jews then their jewish heritage. European Jews seem to be easier and US Jews more strict. If you cross out the word Jewish you will see, that this is actually just a cultural difference between US and Europe. For example, US citizens that go for work to Europe and then decide to stay there, are known to be more open minded in general and funnily the percentage of Democratic voters under US citizens living in Europe is higher than in the US.

    To be fair under US Jews there are Jews that allow to mix and interpret their religion differently. For Example the philosopher Martha Nussbaum, converted to Judaism and is part of a "congregation" that made their highest aim to serve the poor, they give away free food to non-Jews once a week. This liberal kind of Judaism seems to be not the kind of Judaism that shapes the public view and discussion of Jews in the US.

    I got the bloodline stuff, not from European media, but from a US Jew and I found it in a text by a Rabbi in Frankfurt (Germany) that has a website where he answers questions by people. One person asked, that she was christian and his male partner jewish and she would like to get a jew, if that is possible. His answer was, that first of all, to be a Jew you must descend from jewish parents (per blood, not religion), but there are circumstances and so on and he listed about three other definitions of the term "jewish"... also it depends on in what "congregation" (perhaps group/community is better here?) she gets part of, since some of them allow converts.

    Well this bloodline topic is not part of the public or media discussion in Europe and actually before last year I never heard about it, but for completely other topics I wish some more European documentaries were translated into english and broadcasted in the US. Some nice cooperations of Israeli-French-German-British film makers led to some interesting and well informed documentaries in 2014.

    Also I'd say it is more risky to be a (black) muslim in Europe than to be a Jew. Not saying that there is no insults or even assaults on Jews, but I guess other minorities have to fear more.

    Sorry, for being the smartass European that has to get on everybody's nerves, I actually always plan to not answer in such threads, because the topic is so complex.
     
  12. caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #12
    We all come from the same bloodlines if you go back far enough. Which is why I never understood the "race" thing. I don't think there is such a thing. And, inevitably, with global travel and people moving all over the place now ,etc. we will all be very mixed in about 500 years or so.
     
  13. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #13
    Completely agree! That whole race thing is pseudoscientific hogwash and the root of much xenophobia.
     
  14. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #14
    The people in europe have been totally "mixed" since about 2000 years ago, already. (I don't mean the migration period alone. Think of the times Arabs reigned in Spain)
    I am not a racist. I hope you both did get, that I do not support race theories and just wanted to point out that (what was new to me until last year) conservative Jews seem to define themselves by (clean) bloodlines and won't allow mixture.

    That I am not making this up can be seen in the movie "Greenberg": Ben Stiller plays a guy named Greenberg. He visits a party and his friends make a joke about him having become more jewish. He answers: "come on, my father is jewish, my mother is italian, so technically I am not even a Jew". Why would he say that, if the theory, that you have to descend from a jewish mother to be jewish, is not common in the US?

    I would like the OP to comment on what he knows about how Jews themselves define what makes them jewish. I would also like a european Jew to comment in this thread on which selfportrait he was brought up.
     
  15. caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #15
    The mother being Jewish has to do with Israeli citizenship. Not religion. People convert to Judaism all the time in the U.S.
     
  16. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #16
    I would be called worst things if I wore a Yankees cap to a game in Boston. :p
     
  17. Cox Orange, Apr 27, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #17
    Why then do they not talk about Israeli citizenship and why do they make it a topic anyway, if it is no problem. It seems most US Jews don't know it themselves, that they only need this for Israeli citizenship, then. Again why should the character Greenberg in the movie phrase it like "my mother is not jewish, so technically I am no Jew" if it has, as you say, to do with being an Israeli and not the religion? Also, why did Rabbi Miller (Frankfurt) say "you are jewish, when your mother was jewish" and why did he not say "you are an Israeli, if your mother was jewish".
    Don't get me wrong, I'd like to learn. I really don't understand. Well, the world is full of contradictions... and it works, though. :)

    Link to Rabbi Miller's page "ask the Rabbi": http://www.hagalil.com/judentum/rabbi/index.htm (sorry I don't have an english link). Btw. he himself is a non-conservative Jew and as a scientist (he is haed of the department of jewish law at the University of Frankfurt) he just explains the spectrum of what can be given as an answer and some Jews derive their jewishness from bloodline. He does nowhere talk about Israeli Citizenship.

    Here he even says, if you go by the Halacha (jewish law) there are no converts allowed, because then they don't belong to the jewish people (to which you only can belong per bloodline) http://www.hagalil.com/judentum/rabbi/100122.htm Why do they introduce the term "people", if it is only a religion?
     
  18. Technarchy macrumors 603

    Technarchy

    Joined:
    May 21, 2012
    #18
    About as bad in Utah, and this state doesn't even have an MLB team. I wish that was sarcasm. Proxy fans are worse than Bostonians.
     
  19. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #19
    I always found Jersey to be more insane about the NY Jets and Giants vs NY fans.
     
  20. A.Goldberg thread starter macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Boston
    #20
    I agree as well. Race does have some significance in medicine, but aside from that it's mostly something that causes problems. Ashkenazi Jews have a huge history of European oppressors raping Jewish woman throughout the centuries. The "blood lines" have been very "muddied" (poor word choice, sorry). I know plenty of Ashkenazi with 2 "fully Jewish" parents that look like any other western europeaner.

    Many Jew's do have a tendency to be clearly identified without any religious symbolism, but that's really just the result of thousands of years of inbreeding. I suppose it's the same as being able to differentiate between and Irishman and an Italian. The average person doesn't consider them races though (perhaps on an anthropological level they have distinctions).

    I feel many Jews- practicing or secular, still consider themselves part of the Jewish "race", but I would suggest it's more of an ethnic or cultural thing at this point.
     
  21. A.Goldberg, Apr 28, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015

    A.Goldberg thread starter macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Boston
    #21
    Jewishness has many different interpretations.

    By definition within Judaism, anyone who is born to a Jewish mother is considered Jewish. When it comes to legal status in Israel, this is the rule that applies. For converts, typically only Orthodox converts are recognized, though conservative converts may also be accepted for citizenship. It's actually a very big political debate right now.

    In some reform situations, anyone born to a Jewish father can also be considered Jewish without conversion (though not legally in Israel). Anyone who converts is also considered Jewish and Jews are told never to remind converts that they are converts (except their Jewish name will be <name> ben Avraham Avinu or bat Avraham Avinu, meaning <name> "son/daughter of Abraham our father", a name only given to converts, so it's kind of sounds like a reminder to me ;) ). If a convert converts to Reform Judaism, Orthodox bodies typically don't accept the conversion (thus the Israel citizenship issue), while reform (or even atheiest or some other religion) Jews born to Jewish-blooded mothers still have citizenship.

    People born as Jews cannot renounce their Jewishness, even if they decide to practice another religion. While Orthodox Jews recognize conservative and reform born Jews as Jewish, sometimes they are perceived as someone "less-Jewish"

    To say Jews fit into this stereotypical appearance does have some level of truth, but there are many other legitimate Jews of other racial and ethnic groups. Appearance, whether it be religious symbols or a stereotypical phenotype, have really nothing to do with the religion. That said, Jews who do not fit into the typical schema (or converts) may likely feel isolated within homogenous groups.

    How do I perceive someone as being Jewish? I would include born Jews (practicing or not) and those who practice the religion (including converts). I would also extend it to those with significant Jewish heritage (whether from the mother or fathers side), especially if raised with/have adopted Jewish culture. Jewishness does have some innate qualities to it, but many can be adopted or rejected, so it is seemingly possible to be more or less Jewish, like a spectrum.

    I'm not sure if it's fair to call someone Jewish if they don't identify with the religion or the "culture" (another who discussion in itself, as there are many and what do you define as culture?). I define Jewishness as something religious and/or cultural, which may or may not include heritage.

    I think it's really up to the individual to decide how define their identity rather than someone else.
     
  22. dec. Suspended

    dec.

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2012
    Location:
    Toronto
    #22
    wow, that was borderline satire. "Religion" can be pretty amusing :) .
    (as always: IMHO)
     
  23. Cox Orange macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    #23
    @ A. Goldberg:

    Thank you!

    Aside from the fact that it is, as you say, and I agree, more important what someone him/herself defines him-/herself as and not what others define him/her,
    it also underlined, that I was not being racist (as implied by Meister and ceasarp), me mentioning that there are some people deriving their religion from bloodlines (which in the public eye don't have to do anything with each other, hence ceasarp's question/response to thekev, though I knew it was meant rhetorical and not an actual question).
     
  24. A.Goldberg thread starter macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Location:
    Boston
    #24
    If someone is Jewish by birth law and denies it, it's not my place to to tell them who/what they are. They can decide for themselves if Jewishness is something inherited or something chosen. If someone converts, meaning they want to be identified as Jewish, then I will respect them as one being one.

    ----------

    Yes, Religion is such an odd practice. People knock the beliefs of scientology (Thetans and such), but in reality its no more obscure than any other religion with mythological aspects.
     
  25. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    #25
    Jewishness to me is showing up a few times a year at some family dinner. Of course, if my mother doesn't tell me, I have no idea.
     

Share This Page