Anwar Al-Awlaki targeted kill completed

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mkrishnan, Sep 30, 2011.

  1. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #1
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/01/w...revives-contentious-constitutional-issue.html

    The death of this person seems no great loss to society at large, and he may well "deserve" it, but it remains that this kind of targeted killing is an ongoing dismantling of the Constitution by the Bush-Obama contingency. So does the absurdity of an ongoing, "covert" operation in Pakistan that is being conducted by the CIA and has none of the national or international oversight mechanisms usually associated with wars in spite of the fact that there is no concrete way in which it differs from a war except that the government says it is not one.

    Why is there such a monotony of conversation about this here in the US? There's entirely too much of the Right jeering and high-fiving each other that a terrorist is dead, and too much of a grim Left saying Obama did what had to be done. This is becoming more and more like watching 24 from a couple of seasons ago.

    What had to be done is upholding the values of the United States of America. This government behavior is fundamentally inconsistent with liberty.
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Quite simply- too many Americans don't concern themselves with the rights of a fellow American with an Arabic name.
     
  3. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    Ah yes, liberty. The notion that someone can leave this country, call for the destruction of it's citizens, praise the individuals that carry out attacks, and lead others to follow in their footsteps. A terrorist's wet dream to be protected by our constitution, while at the same time destroying everything it would stand for.
     
  4. Squadleader macrumors regular

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    #4
    You mean the ones that declare war on thier country and fellow American with west sounding names...You wouldnt last 24 Hours within his environment, and he would cast the first stone...but you sure do sound noble typing from middle America..
     
  5. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #5
    Yeah, he doesn't garner himself much sympathy. That photo that goes around of him makes him look like Osama Bin-Laden's nerdy little brother....

    I also have mixed feelings in that I'm not entirely against the practice of targeted killing, even though there are some international prohibitions and the US chooses not to engage in this sometimes. There are probably times when legal authority to take out a dictator with a special forces team would save a lot of lives and be a lot easier than going to war. Of course, there are other times when it would lead to a power vacuum and cause a disaster.

    However, I don't see where this expansion of government authority to circumvent the law stops.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    What? Who was defending anyone? Some of you sure jump to conclusions very quickly.
     
  7. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    What conclusion do you think he was jumping to? That you were defending Anwar Al-Awlaki? Geez I wonder how he came up with that?
     
  8. Peterkro, Sep 30, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2011

    Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #8
    Targeted kill? Remind me again what exactly is the difference between the "terrorists" and the "do-gooders".

    As pointed out in the Washington Post,a case of good timing.Whilst vicious bastard Saleh clamours for continued US support in his murderous campaign to stifle dissent he raises the spectre of Al Qaeda and suddenly the whereabouts of a supposedly high ranking US member of the group becomes known.A cynical person might think the two things were related.
     
  9. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #9
    I won't speak for Lee, but I made it clear that I don't particularly care for or sympathize with Al-Awlaki. That doesn't make this any less an issue of preserving American liberties and due process of American law.

    In essence I am saying "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." The question I am asking is how this went from being a statement of our founding fathers to being equally reviled by the right and left as a clearly un-American concept....
     
  10. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    #10
    The Government has been doing this sort of stuff for a long, long time now. The big differences is that they're bragging about it to the media now, where as before everything was hush-hush.
     
  11. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #11
    It has less to do with his name and more to do with the fact that he was a dirty terrorist. I'm curious as to where he was killed, was it in Yemen? If so the government could have stripped him of his US citizenship and killed him in yemen with no constitutional issue.
    I would rather know about it.
     
  12. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #12
    This. Thank you.
     
  13. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #13
    It's pretty pathetic.

    Terrorists hope to destroy America, and in response the US government have undermined some of their most fundamental freedoms, morals and rights.

    Terrorists can attack the West, but they have no hope of destroying it. However, right wing nutjobs and politicians stand a chance of eroding our rights and liberties- and unfortunately they seem to have made the greatest impact in the US.
     
  14. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #14
    I agree. Rick Perry should never have ordered the targeted killing of Bin Laden or Al-Awlaki.
     
  15. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #15
    It's a common pattern that in times of difficulty governments drift right. Now I'm not saying all turn into totalitarian regimes, but they do often move to restrict liberties and freedoms to some extent. The issue is whether the courts and society tolerate these attempts.

    Bush went mad after 9/11 and although Obama reigned it in a bit he is hardly acting in a liberal, enlightened way. The support of nutjobs means these patterns of indefinite detention, mistreatment and assassination have continued. It's sad and pathetic.
     
  16. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #16
    Unfortunately there are some people who believe Osama should have been captured and given a fair trial. Those are the types of liberals I'm not proud of. I take a pretty hardline stance against people like this, if you're trying to attack this country, you should be killed immediately. No ifs ands or buts about it.

    ----------

    Obama did exactly what he needed to do. This guy needed to be whacked.
     
  17. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #17
    You're give us real liberals a bad name! Your views posted on MR seem pretty right-wing/conservative/republican.

    If those troops acted in self-defence with Osama, fair enough. But a kill order isn't necessary. Fair trial and punishment are cornerstones of Western society. Assassination undermines this. Not to mention Gitmo and torture of detainees. Like I say, it's pathetic to see Western societies resorting to this.
     
  18. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #18
    I'd like to point out that in the military during a time of war it is legal to have a summary firing squad for certain crimes. This in no way reflects my view against Capitol punishment . I'm against it no matter what . But military law differs greatly from civilian law.

    The only problem I see here is the united states doesn't have the guts to declare war on Yeman. Or on other countries for that matter.

    it's sad that our society will not allow the military to bring terrorist to this country for trial.

    Until that happens we can be sure this type of thing will happen again.
     
  19. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #19
    There is a HUGE difference between respecting the law, and defending someone.

    Rule of law was what was SUPPOSED to set America apart from the rest of the world, oh how things have changed.

    ----------

    Obama = Bush in terms of foreign policy. Don't let the gentle words in front of the camera make you think this country is any less imperialistic now than it has been for over a century.
     
  20. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #20
    I was in the military 40 years ago so things may have changed but "due process" was a joke back then. There was no due process. You stood before the Captain and another officer claimed something about you then the Captain made a decision. That was it.

    During time of war it was called the law of the sea. No joke. Very real. If the commander thought you were doing something that interfered with the lawful command of the captain you were screwed. Period. I know it happened to me.
     
  21. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #21
    Only when it comes to capital punishment/terrorism, i have no sympathy for those types of people. Other than that i'm liberal on most fiscal/social issues.
     
  22. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #22
    Philosophically I have mixed feelings about this, but if what I've read is true, for most intents, the guy was a enemy combatant or a criminal, your choice. If he is beyond the arm of civil law, in what equates to an irregular war in a semi-hostile country, then whacking him is a viable option. I'm sure he would have described himself as a combatant for Allah, and electing to kill for political gains, he knew the risks. These people would happily blow up as many innocent people as they could if it could achieve their world vision of militant Muslim* domination. Can you really hold it against U.S. entities for eradicating these kind of threats when we can?

    * This is not intended to come across as a blanket anti-Muslim statement. I believe many Muslims can live and let live.
     
  23. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #23
    You do realise that those you see as terrorists hold the exact same views and are equally confidant they are right as well?
     
  24. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

    kavika411

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    #24
    Didn't realize Huntn (or those similarly minded/situated to him) strap bombs to kids and send them into crowds on a not infrequent basis. But I guess you learn something new every day.
     
  25. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #25
    That's madness! Do they actually do this or is it just an old rule that isn't used any more?! I know the UK banned capital punishment during war, but only recently despite not having done it for many decades.

    I doubt many people have sympathy for terrorists. I'd just prefer not to undermine civil rights and ensure people are convicted in court; rather than following the strategy of indefinite detention, torture and assassination. The later makes us little better than them.
     

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