Apple Closing Stores in Southern California, Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Texas, Utah and More

[0920872]

What are you trying to convey here?

That COVID is objectively worse (>20x), and if we apply the same lack of infection prevention measures as to what we do with the Flu we'd have millions dead. Thus the comparison is inappropriate.
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You are trying to claim that all viruses are equally dangerous which, scientifically, is nonsense. 61K deaths with no masks and isolation is very different from 128K deaths (and counting) with lock-down, social isolation and masks. Once (hopefully) we get a vaccine and maybe some better drugs for Covid-19, we will be able to handle it the same way we handle flu. The mere fact that the vaccine might be coming soon make use of lock-down meaningful (as a temporary measure). Flu being a constant presence does not give us that luxury.

I agree, but there are many assumptions with the vaccine:
1) It yields immunity
2) The immunity lasts long enough
3) There is enough vaccine
4) People overcome their antivax tendencies.

 

[pedzsan]

The virus primarily spreads via droplets from breathing/talking/coughing. Wearing a mask is obviously going to reduce the number of such droplets you spread. It’s so simple. Come on.

Does it spread via the air? Or does it spread via surfaces? As far as the droplets, what percentage of those droplets are caught by the mask? Think about the volume of air that a person breaths out. If the mask caught a significant percentage of the moisture, it would be saturated within a fairly short time. Think about all the "steam" that comes out of your nose and mouth on cold mornings. You exhale a LOT of moisture. My belief is that by far, most of it is not caught by a mask.

 

[0920872]

Does it spread via the air? Or does it spread via surfaces? As far as the droplets, what percentage of those droplets are caught by the mask? Think about the volume of air that a person breaths out. If the mask caught a significant percentage of the moisture, it would be saturated within a fairly short time. Think about all the "steam" that comes out of your nose and mouth on cold mornings. You exhale a LOT of moisture. My belief is that by far, most of it is not caught by a mask.

The mask reduces the velocity of your exhalation and thus reduces the travel of the exhaled particles. Consider it an extra layer of social distancing. Now we do have some evidence that masks provide some protection to the wearer. It's really social distancing > respirators > masks > eye shields.

 

[Rocko99991]

Yet deaths associated with it have been declining ever since the peak in April. There is still very little evidence that suggests that asymptomatic people are able to transmit the virus. The virus has a death rate of just 0.05%.

With the broadcasting of all of these COVID related numbers on all sorts of websites and TV channels, of course it looks terrifying, however I think the general public would feel a lot more at ease if they also saw all other sorts of numbers besides the COVID numbers. Simply due to the fact that COVID is the only disease which has had its numbers published and broadcasted in such a widespread and continual manner.

Keeping a running tally on drug, alcohol, flu, car accident, you name it deaths would bring a similar panic.

For example-if alcohol was a new product yet killed 88,000 people in one year-it's yearly average-there would be phenomenal outrage and people would be demanding the deadly beverage be banned immediately.

 

[0920872]

Keeping a running tally on drug, alcohol, flu, car accident, you name it deaths would bring a similar panic.

For example-if alcohol was a new product yet killed 88,000 people in one year-it's yearly average-there would be phenomenal outrage and people would be demanding the deadly beverage be banned immediately.

FYI if the current mortality rate persists, COVID will be the third commonest cause of death in the USA by the end of the year second only to cancer and cardiovascular mortality.

 

[Rocko99991]

Everyone knew that when we started opening things up that numbers would tick up. And the numbers are mainly going up in the working class age groups because they're now around coworkers (many employers are making their employees get tested which drives up the counts) and they're going out in public (restaurants and bars, etc...). They're also extremely unlikely (99.9%) to go to the hospital or die.

Tests have gone up which drive up numbers but deaths and hospitalizations have plummeted. And neither of those numbers got remotely close to early estimates.

Apple is a private company and can close down all they want, but the hysteria in the media and among the mask Nazis is a bit much. People need to chill. If going to the store and seeing someone without a mask triggers you, order online or stay home. (The CDC recommends staying home too.)

Media is mainly focusing on cases. That is not nearly enough information. Hospitalizations, deaths, recovered, demographics, etc. is needed as well.

 

[pedzsan]

The mask reduces the velocity of your exhalation and thus reduces the travel of the exhaled particles. Consider it an extra layer of social distancing. Now we do have some evidence that masks provide some protection to the wearer. It's really social distancing > respirators > masks > eye shields.

I've seen that before but if I'm in a store, for example, and walking around and someone else is walking around too, they are going to encounter the same moisture and air that I just breathed out.

Also... don't ignore the negative consequences -- in particular the hysteria associated with masks (people who don't wear them) now. It is just another way to control the people and the hysteria, to me, verifies that.

To recap: my belief is that masks do practically zero benefit and modest detriments.

 

[gleepskip]

That COVID is objectively worse (>20x), and if we apply the same lack of infection prevention measures as to what we do with the Flu we'd have millions dead. Thus the comparison is inappropriate.

You can only derive from those figures that a higher percentage of symptomatic COVID patients die. How many asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers are there? I've seen estimates of 10x or more above symptomatic.

 

[0920872]

I've seen that before but if I'm in a store, for example, and walking around and someone else is walking around too, they are going to encounter the same moisture and air that I just breathed out.

Also... don't ignore the negative consequences -- in particular the hysteria associated with masks (people who don't wear them) now. It is just another way to control the people and the hysteria, to me, verifies that.

To recap: my belief is that masks do practically zero benefit and modest detriments.

You'd be absolutely correct if the viral particles wouldn't have a relatively short half-life floating around in the air, especially with UV disintegrating RNA) and you need to inhale a certain concentration/dose to get the disease. Masks are not perfect, but are an extra safety layer. In closed spaces this is indeed important where AC can blow it in your respiratory tract. So there you have a layer of filtration both ways if everybody's wearing a mask.

About the modest detriments...Are you suggesting that hysteria should override safety? It's inconvenient to wash your hands after a pooping, and the public health benefit at the present is probably less than wearing a mask. You still do it (I hope).
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You can only derive from those figures that a higher percentage of symptomatic COVID patients die. How many asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers are there? I've seen estimates of 10x or more above symptomatic.

I'm aware. According to those estimates, COVID is still much much deadlier than the Flu. The immunity differential (see above) is why using symptomatic cases is a more valid comparison. Also, Flu also remains asymptomatic in about third of the cases.

 

[Baymowe335]

You are trying to claim that all viruses are equally dangerous which, scientifically, is nonsense. 61K deaths with no masks and isolation is very different from 128K deaths (and counting) with lock-down, social isolation and masks. Once (hopefully) we get a vaccine and maybe some better drugs for Covid-19, we will be able to handle it the same way we handle flu. The mere fact that the vaccine might be coming soon make use of lock-down meaningful (as a temporary measure). Flu being a constant presence does not give us that luxury.

I never said anything about equal. I don’t know that. I know the flu is dangerous and kills 61,000 in a season WITH a vaccine and treatments.

You are overrating the “lockdown” and compliance with social distancing and masks.

Flu deaths are also (and counting) and have killed more people over time. We will see if Covid remains a thing long term like the flu.

 

[0920872]

Media is mainly focusing on cases. That is not nearly enough information. Hospitalizations, deaths, recovered, demographics, etc. is needed as well.

And you can find all that here:

COVID-19 Hospitalizations

gis.cdc.gov

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You are overrating the “lockdown” and compliance with social distancing and masks.

And what is your data to suggest this statement? (you don't have it)

 

[NokX]

Texas hospitals are filling up.

Internal messages reveal crisis at Houston hospitals as coronavirus cases surge

Texas was one of the first states in the nation to ease social distancing mandates. In Houston, the number of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 has quadrupled since Memorial Day. “It’s time to be alarmed,” one expert said.

www.texastribune.org

From the article:

...the CEOs of four hospitals in the medical center abruptly dialed back their earlier warnings at a hastily organized news conference. They said they hadn’t meant to alarm the public. The hospitals still had room to add ICU beds, they said, both to treat COVID-19 and to continue caring for other patients.

Headlines and the first few paragraphs sell clicks.

 

[compwiz1202]

I agree you cant make it mandatory. But i also think if stores can say "no shirt, no shoes, no service" they could surely say "no shirt, no shoes, no mask, no service" which where i'm at, some of them have. (costco, menards)

Wish more were like Costco and escorted people breaking the rules out.

 

[Rocko99991]

And you can find all that here:

COVID-19 Hospitalizations

gis.cdc.gov

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Great, you can spend quite a long time disseminating some of the needed info. Again-not being shown by the media. 95% of people won't spend the time digging for the info.

 

[dazz87]

Apparently not! Probably because most protesters were wearing masks and were outside.

Research Determines Protests Did Not Cause Spike In Coronavirus Cases

Surprisingly, research suggests that protests actually may have led to increased social distancing.

www.forbes.com

Forbes very reliable source.

 

[0920872]

Great, you can spend quite a long time disseminating some of the needed info. Again-not being shown by the media. 95% of people won't spend the time digging for the info.

Yep. CDC's data is usually lagging by a week or two so not fit for the scary news de jour we get from the Media.
I don't mind being a week behind on this...as long as things are stable in my state.
I think Hopkins' tracker is the best especially for quick comparisons. Now they also have the numbers on ICU beds per county, so you get an idea how much it takes for your local facilities to be overwhelmed.

COVID-19 United States Cases by County - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

Johns Hopkins U.S. County Level COVID-19 Tracking Map

coronavirus.jhu.edu

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Forbes very reliable source.

So then you click the reference link that takes you to AP that links the study which seems not to be peer reviewed yet (i.e. not quality controlled yet for scientific merit). But here are the conclusions:

"Sparked by the killing of George Floyd in police custody, the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests have brought a new wave of attention to the issue of inequality within criminal justice. However, many public health officials have warned that mass protests could lead to a reduction in social distancing behavior, spurring a resurgence of COVID-19. This study uses newly collected data on protests in 315 of the largest U.S. cities to estimate the impacts of mass protests on social distancing and COVID-19 case growth. Event-study analyses provide strong evidence that net stay-at-home behavior increased following protest onset, consistent with the hypothesis that non- protesters’ behavior was substantially affected by urban protests. This effect was not fully explained by the imposition of city curfews. Estimated effects were generally larger for persistent protests and those accompanied by media reports of violence. Furthermore, we find no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case growth during the more than three weeks following protest onset. We conclude that predictions of broad negative public health consequences of Black Lives Matter protests were far too narrowly conceived."

https://www.nber.org/papers/w27408.pdf

 

[NickName99]

Does it spread via the air? Or does it spread via surfaces? As far as the droplets, what percentage of those droplets are caught by the mask? Think about the volume of air that a person breaths out. If the mask caught a significant percentage of the moisture, it would be saturated within a fairly short time. Think about all the "steam" that comes out of your nose and mouth on cold mornings. You exhale a LOT of moisture. My belief is that by far, most of it is not caught by a mask.

I see you’re in Texas. I bet you know lots of folks with the same “belief” regarding masks. Looks like that’s going well for y’all.

How coronavirus impacted Texas: Hospitalizations, vaccinations, cases and deaths

From April 2020 to August 2022, the Texas Tribune used data from the Texas Department of State Health Services to track coronavirus hospitalizations, vaccinations, cases and deaths. We stopped updating these numbers in August 2022.

apps.texastribune.org

 

[Osxguy]

Can I say I told you so yet... or should I wait for the number to hit 200,000.....

 

[826317]

Government statistics is the only one we have. Your suspicions about its accuracy is just a conspiracy theory. On the news we also read that some specialists believe that Covid-19 deaths are under-reported. To make it clear you need to provide a link to the source. I did not.

How can we verify those government statistics exactly?

 

[0920872]

How can we verify those government statistics exactly?

That data is available for independent review (with delay). Concurrently you can compare data from other governments with different healthcare systems. If you've read my post above you could see that.

 

[826317]

I'd love to see a source for this statement, the WHO came out and said it then retracted their statement.

See, the person who makes the claim of truth needs to back up the claim with evidence. So let's see some evidence for asymptomatic transmission. I'll let you know, there is very little evidence for it. Just several published poorly substantiated papers that have not been peer reviewed. It's not surprising really because it's in the very nature of being an asymptomatic carrier of a virus to not be recognised in statistics and potential studies. For example, a government agency for the Republic of Ireland HIQA has released this evidence summary: https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/f...for-asymptomatic-transmission-of-COVID-19.pdf even reading the CDC's summary yields very little substantial evidence: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

 

[hagjohn]

Hope everyone is enjoying staying home and not working. Since many do not want to listen , this is just going to drag on and on till we get a vaccine late in the year or into next spring. I just don't have the patience for this debate anymore.

Students in Alabama Threw COVID Parties to See Who Would Get Infected First, Say Officials

Several college students in an Alabama city organized “COVID-19” parties as a contest to see who would get the virus first, officials said

time.com

 

[826317]

That data is available for independent review (with delay). Concurrently you can compare data from other governments with different healthcare systems. If you've read my post above you could see that.

You cannot even take national statistics and compare them over time as the criteria for testing and classification has changed over the course of this pandemic. The same is true for other governments. Many governments at first limited testing to just those with severe symptoms, causing the number of cases to number of deaths to look a lot more substantial than they actually were. So drawing comparisons between multiple governments is a terrible idea, mathematically speaking.

I also find it worrying how we're always told by almost all governments how many people have died and how many cases there have been confirmed on any particular day, however, the number of tests carried out which yielded such results are almost never released or at least reported and of course with those testing figures they should also clearly tell us who exactly has been tested. i.e x% of tests were carried out on people who reported severe symptoms etc.

Media outlets are fear-mongering the general public into submission, this is not a conspiracy, this is clear as day.

 

[0920872]

See, the person who makes the claim of truth needs to back up the claim with evidence. So let's see some evidence for asymptomatic transmission. I'll let you know, there is very little evidence for it. Just several published poorly substantiated papers that have not been peer reviewed. It's not surprising really because it's in the very nature of being an asymptomatic carrier of a virus to not be recognised in statistics and potential studies. For example, a government agency for the Republic of Ireland HIQA has released this evidence summary: https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/f...for-asymptomatic-transmission-of-COVID-19.pdf even reading the CDC's summary yields very little substantial evidence: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

THe irish statement is literally 2.5 months old. That's like a decade in Coronarian time.
Your CDC statement says:

"Public Health Implications of Transmission While Asymptomatic
The existence of persons with asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection who are capable of transmitting the virus to others has several implications. First, the case-fatality rate for COVID-19 may be lower than currently estimated ratios if asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections are included (34,35). Second, transmission while asymptomatic reinforces the value of community interventions to slow the transmission of COVID-19."

To get your 0.05% mortality rate with COVID you'd need more than 100 asymptomatic cases to 1 symptomatic. There's nothing to suggest this. And just to repeat it a 3rd time, it may be irrelevant because there's a higher chance that you may get COVID (again) after having an asymptomatic infection.

 

[826317]

Hope everyone is enjoying staying home and not working. Since many do not want to listen , this is just going to drag on and on till we get a vaccine late in the year or into next spring. I just don't have the patience for this debate anymore.

Students in Alabama Threw COVID Parties to See Who Would Get Infected First, Say Officials

Several college students in an Alabama city organized “COVID-19” parties as a contest to see who would get the virus first, officials said

time.com

And they will not develop a working vaccine. If you look at the history of vaccines for RNA viruses, you will not find many successful vaccines.
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THe irish statement is literally 2.5 months old. That's like a decade in Coronarian time.
Your CDC statement says:

"Public Health Implications of Transmission While Asymptomatic
The existence of persons with asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection who are capable of transmitting the virus to others has several implications. First, the case-fatality rate for COVID-19 may be lower than currently estimated ratios if asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections are included (34,35). Second, transmission while asymptomatic reinforces the value of community interventions to slow the transmission of COVID-19."

To get your 0.05% mortality rate with COVID you'd need more than 100 asymptomatic cases to 1 symptomatic. There's nothing to suggest this. And just to repeat it a 3rd time, it may be irrelevant because there's a higher chance that you may get COVID (again) after having an asymptomatic infection.

I must admit that the 0.05% is too low and I want to correct it and say that I misremembered this figure. The figures that came out of Qatar and Singapore are between 0.07% and 0.09% respectively. So yes you're right to say that in all likelihood the number is higher. Still many magnitudes lower than what has and is being reported.