Apple removes a Christian ministry's app after LGBT Complaints

DipDog3

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FrankieTDouglas

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Apple has stated that they will not allow their platform to be used directly to facilitate bigotry. This move is consistent with Apple's policy.
Good I say. Apps promoting bigotry should be removed. I wouldn’t want my kids finding that tripe.
Two decades ago, there was a group called the Parents Television Council that patrolled television shows and attempted to get shows removed from the airwaves if they didn't uphold to their specific moral standards. Those moral standards were specifically of the "family values" variety and the organization was/is complete bull$hit, not for having a moral view, but for trying to push that view onto others through the usage of bans, removing platforms, and attempts to silence those they disagreed with.

Right now, cheering a ban for something you disagree with, puts you into the same company as the religious crusaders back then.

If they didn't like it, they should simply not watch it.

If you don't like this app, don't download it?

I'll take my cue from this video Apple played a few years back at an event...

 

The-Real-Deal82

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Two decades ago, there was a group called the Parents Television Council that patrolled television shows and attempted to get shows removed from the airwaves if they didn't uphold to their specific moral standards. Those moral standards were specifically of the "family values" variety and the organization was/is complete bull$hit, not for having a moral view, but for trying to push that view onto others through the usage of bans, removing platforms, and attempts to silence those they disagreed with.

Right now, cheering a ban for something you disagree with, puts you into the same company as the religious crusaders back then.

If they didn't like it, they should simply not watch it.

If you don't like this app, don't download it?

I'll take my cue from this video Apple played a few years back at an event...

I don’t see it as removing something I don’t agree with as I’d waste my entire life attempting that and it would be pointless. It’s good to be challenged on views but there is a line. I see it as removing a platform that promotes bigotry and homophobia which ultimately fuels hatred and misunderstanding. It’s poisonous outlets like that which can put people in danger and it only encourages the next generation to be as disgusting as the previous.

I’d much rather see apps promoting advice for those who are homosexual or struggling with their identity than those wishing to demonise it. Good on Apple I say and if anybody is a spineless homophobe then maybe their morals can be satisfied using another companies products.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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What App Store rule are they breaking? Are they pushing gay conversion therapy in their app? And if they were what rule is that breaking?
It might not be a specific rule but a preference for the company. To avoid bad PR it’s best not to provide controversial outlets, much like social media banning certain hate groups in recent times.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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Are they being forced to download the app? If not.... then....eh? I dont get it. Its like a TV show that you dont like the message of or whatever: Dont watch it. Problem solved. Easy. Unless of course there is another agenda which there usually is these days.
Or if you’re Apple just don’t sell it or provide it. Those that want it are free to get it elsewhere. Problem solved.
 

Rogifan

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It might not be a specific rule but a preference for the company. To avoid bad PR it’s best not to provide controversial outlets, much like social media banning certain hate groups in recent times.
There’s no bad PR. I’m sure most people didn’t know this app existed. It’s like YouTube changing search results after someone complained about what videos showed up when they searched on the term abortion. God forbid abortion be shown for what it really is.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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There’s no bad PR. I’m sure most people didn’t know this app existed. It’s like YouTube changing search results after someone complained about what videos showed up when they searched on the term abortion. God forbid abortion be shown for what it really is.
It becomes bad PR once it’s advertised. When it’s content is offensive to millions of people including the companies own CEO, it’s their prerogative to decide not to provide it in their store. If YouTube want to remove abortion videos then again that’s up to them. They could file them under ‘adult content’ with warnings if they are of educational value, but that’s a different topic altogether.
 

Rogifan

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It becomes bad PR once it’s advertised. When it’s content is offensive to millions of people including the companies own CEO, it’s their prerogative to decide not to provide it in their store. If YouTube want to remove abortion videos then again that’s up to them. They could file them under ‘adult content’ with warnings if they are of educational value, but that’s a different topic altogether.
How do we know this app was offensive to millions of people?
 

Rogifan

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Nov 14, 2011
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It’s content discusses ‘conversion therapy’ which is complete rubbish and gives people the impression being homosexual is wrong and something that can be ‘cured’. It’s offensive and downright misleading and Apple were spot on getting rid of this hateful propaganda.
I’m talking about the app. And what you said is your opinion not fact.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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I’m talking about the app. And what you said is your opinion not fact.
It’s my opinion that I don’t like homophobic apps but my comments about conversion therapy being fake are completely factual. It’s a load of tripe created by backward religious people attempting to suppress the fact one of their own is homosexual. People like that should just get in the bin and be done with it.
 

ThisBougieLife

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Or if you’re Apple just don’t sell it or provide it. Those that want it are free to get it elsewhere. Problem solved.
Funny how that logic applies to getting a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, but not an app store. An app store should be forced to sell everything, but a cake shop has "freedom of business".

Double standards much?

I think both, despite their differences in size and scope, should be free to sell/provide what they want. But I do agree they should make it clear what's allowed and what's not in their rules.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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Funny how that logic applies to getting a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, but not an app store. An app store should be forced to sell everything, but a cake shop has "freedom of business".

Double standards much?

I think both, despite their differences in size and scope, should be free to sell/provide what they want. But I do agree they should make it clear what's allowed and what's not in their rules.
I think the difference is the cake shop decided to discriminate whereas the App Store is removing an app which is doing just that. It’s not double standards but a positive approach by society to finally accept people rather than choosing to hate or exclude those who put religion before being a decent person.

I think the cake shop story got way out of hand personally. If I had been the one who was refused service for my sexuality, you bet I’d take my business elsewhere. I just would have destroyed its reputation in the process by making sure as many people as possible knew what had happened. The whole thing took far too long in my opinion and it’s should have been clear at the very first instance.

Apple made it clear recently what their policy was on hate speech and this app falls under that if it’s suggesting homosexuality needs to be cured.
 

CerebralX

macrumors 6502
Apple has stated that they will not allow their platform to be used directly to facilitate bigotry. This move is consistent with Apple's policy.
As much as I think gay conversation therapy is absolute nonsense and should not be taken seriously, how in the hell is that considered bigotry? I mean, do you know what the definition of bigotry is?

bigotry
/ˈbɪɡətri/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
  1. intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

The concept of gay conversion therapy is quite literally an opinion that people hold as being effective in removing one's homosexuality. So by not tolerating their opinion you are by definition being a bigot.
 

Rigby

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What App Store rule are they breaking? Are they pushing gay conversion therapy in their app? And if they were what rule is that breaking?
https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#objectionable-content

1.1 Objectionable Content

Apps should not include content that is offensive, insensitive, upsetting, intended to disgust, or in exceptionally poor taste. Examples of such content include:
  • 1.1.1 Defamatory, discriminatory, or mean-spirited content, including references or commentary about religion, race, sexual orientation, gender, national/ethnic origin, or other targeted groups, particularly if the app is likely to humiliate, intimidate, or place a targeted individual or group in harm’s way. Professional political satirists and humorists are generally exempt from this requirement.

Don't like it? Publish your app somewhere else.
 

sean000

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I googled Living Hope ministries and found that they are connected with Sue Bohlin, who is a gay conversion therapy proponent. She is also connect with Probe Ministries (most hilarious name ever for a ministry). Probe ministries is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Apple is a private company. They can and do set their own standards for the App Store. I'm anti-book/music/art banning in 99% of the cases out there, but personally I don't shed any tears or worry about a slippery slope when a hate group gets banned from the App Store, Twitter, Facebook, etc. It's one thing to make your case about why you might believe something controversial. It's another to target groups of people with threats and statements about how they should not exist. Apple made a sensible judgement call here. They banned an app that a significant number of their customers find threatening. Where do we draw the line? We don't... Apple does. I agree with them in this case. I may not agree with them for the next.

I grew up in the South with a couple of very close friends who came out as gay after we all graduated high school. This was around 1990 when gay conversion therapy was not even on the radar of most people as being a controversial practice, and there were places close to where we grew up that practiced it. We grew up near Tony Alamo's religious empire. He was a well-known evangelist and gay-basher... as well as a convicted pedophile who died in prison. My friends waited until after high school to come out for a number of reasons. Mostly they just wanted to avoid the drama of coming out in an environment where gay slurs and gay jokes where common features of everyday conversations. One of my friends also said she wanted to wait until she was 18 because she was worried her father might send her to gay conversion therapy. She and her father did not talk for about a year or so after she came out. Now she doesn't think he actually would have done that, but it wasn't unusual at the time. Some parents sent their gay children to scheduled therapy-type sessions. Others sent their gay kids to conversion camps. In extreme cases these camps would help parents force their unwilling children into a vehicle that would take them to a camp in the middle of nowhere. Many kids went willingly because they were so shamed into believing that what they were feeling was wrong. Gay conversion therapy is emotional abuse that is psychologically damaging. Groups that practice it belong on the hate-group list alongside the KKK and neo-Nazis.
[doublepost=1545587095][/doublepost]
As much as I think gay conversation therapy is absolute nonsense and should not be taken seriously, how in the hell is that considered bigotry? I mean, do you know what the definition of bigotry is?

bigotry
/ˈbɪɡətri/
noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries
  1. intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

The concept of gay conversion therapy is quite literally an opinion that people hold as being effective in removing one's homosexuality. So by not tolerating their opinion you are by definition being a bigot.
Gay conversion therapy is not just an opinion that some people have. It's actually practiced and it's abusive. The American Psychiatric Association considers it to be unethical ineffective. People who have been through it describe emotional abuse (including brain-washing techniques) physical abuse, and even sexual abuse.

It's one thing to have controversial beliefs. It's another to target another group with threatening rhetoric, and it's way out of bounds to abuse minors with pseudo-scientific therapy. Should parents be allowed to subject their children to such abuse? I do not believe that they should.
 

CerebralX

macrumors 6502
I googled Living Hope ministries and found that they are connected with Sue Bohlin, who is a gay conversion therapy proponent. She is also connect with Probe Ministries (most hilarious name ever for a ministry). Probe ministries is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Apple is a private company. They can and do set their own standards for the App Store. I'm anti-book/music/art banning in 99% of the cases out there, but personally I don't shed any tears or worry about a slippery slope when a hate group gets banned from the App Store, Twitter, Facebook, etc. It's one thing to make your case about why you might believe something controversial. It's another to target groups of people with threats and statements about how they should not exist. Apple made a sensible judgement call here. They banned an app that a significant number of their customers find threatening. Where do we draw the line? We don't... Apple does. I agree with them in this case. I may not agree with them for the next.

I grew up in the South with a couple of very close friends who came out as gay after we all graduated high school. This was around 1990 when gay conversion therapy was not even on the radar of most people as being a controversial practice, and there were places close to where we grew up that practiced it. We grew up near Tony Alamo's religious empire. He was a well-known evangelist and gay-basher... as well as a convicted pedophile who died in prison. My friends waited until after high school to come out for a number of reasons. Mostly they just wanted to avoid the drama of coming out in an environment where gay slurs and gay jokes where common features of everyday conversations. One of my friends also said she wanted to wait until she was 18 because she was worried her father might send her to gay conversion therapy. She and her father did not talk for about a year or so after she came out. Now she doesn't think he actually would have done that, but it wasn't unusual at the time. Some parents sent their gay children to scheduled therapy-type sessions. Others sent their gay kids to conversion camps. In extreme cases these camps would help parents force their unwilling children into a vehicle that would take them to a camp in the middle of nowhere. Many kids went willingly because they were so shamed into believing that what they were feeling was wrong. Gay conversion therapy is emotional abuse that is psychologically damaging. Groups that practice it belong on the hate-group list alongside the KKK and neo-Nazis.
[doublepost=1545587095][/doublepost]

Gay conversion therapy is not just an opinion that some people have. It's actually practiced and it's abusive. The American Psychiatric Association considers it to be unethical ineffective. People who have been through it describe emotional abuse (including brain-washing techniques) physical abuse, and even sexual abuse.

It's one thing to have controversial beliefs. It's another to target another group with threatening rhetoric, and it's way out of bounds to abuse minors with pseudo-scientific therapy. Should parents be allowed to subject their children to such abuse? I do not believe that they should.
I definitely think that the actual physical practice of said "conversion therapy" is abhorrent and abusive. I can also see why Apple would want to remove such an app. I just don't understand why the term "bigotry" is used in these instances, because in essence your intolerance of another person's beliefs equates to the dictionary definition of "bigotry", yet you're championing against bigotry. I'm using "your" in the general sense, not directed at you.
 
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Rogifan

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https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#objectionable-content

1.1 Objectionable Content

Apps should not include content that is offensive, insensitive, upsetting, intended to disgust, or in exceptionally poor taste. Examples of such content include:
  • 1.1.1 Defamatory, discriminatory, or mean-spirited content, including references or commentary about religion, race, sexual orientation, gender, national/ethnic origin, or other targeted groups, particularly if the app is likely to humiliate, intimidate, or place a targeted individual or group in harm’s way. Professional political satirists and humorists are generally exempt from this requirement.

Don't like it? Publish your app somewhere else.
Apple can do whatever it wants. I didn’t know the app existed until they removed it.