Apple Responsibility

WilliamDu

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 22, 2012
218
89
Apple needs to publicly provide procedures for regressing to Mojave for those having severe issues,
that were foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina despite months of disastrous posts on these forums.
 
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Bending Pixels

macrumors 65816
Jul 22, 2010
1,273
333
Apple needs to publicly provide procedures for regressing to Mojave for those having severe issues,
that were foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina despite months of disastrous posts on these forums.
What specific issues are you having?
 

Tony_YYZ

macrumors regular
Jun 30, 2015
140
74
Apple needs to publicly provide procedures for regressing to Mojave for those having severe issues,
that were foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina despite months of disastrous posts on these forums.
Take a look here to download the bootable install media: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT201372

I seem to remember that users were advised to make a full, bootable, backup in advance.
So, .... responsibility lies with the user.
;JOOP!
Where in the daily prompt that users received bugging them to update their OS did it tell them and explain how to make a full, bootable backup in advance?
 
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WilliamDu

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 22, 2012
218
89
What specific issues are you having?
I always read Forum posts extensively and therefore am not one of those foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina.
Therefore, I have no issues except with Catalina apologists that may influence others to upgrade.
 
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MEJHarrison

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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1,516
I always read Forum posts extensively and therefore am not one of those foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina. Therefore, I have no issues except with Catalina apologists that may influence others to upgrade.
So you, with no firsthand knowledge yourself, feel it's your duty to influence others not to upgrade? That's how I'm reading it. To me it kinda of feels like equal, but opposite reactions to the issue. Why not just not stop trying to influence others altogether?

Why insult those who have upgraded? In two separate posts you called those people foolish. And then insulted those who like Catalina.

And twice you've said the source of your wisdom was gleaned from forum posts. A place where people come with their problems. Therefore, not exactly an unbiased source. I'm not saying Catalina was a great release. But I wouldn't gauge its success on a forum where people come for help.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.
 

fisherking

macrumors 604
Jul 16, 2010
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ny somewhere
yeah, i don't get it. lots of ppl using catalina without issue (or, major issues). and then, ppl with issues, discussing them here, on this forum just like with previous mac oses.

it's a lot like someone who tells you not to see a movie because it's really bad... even tho they haven't seen it themselves.

it's a crazy world out here...
 
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TiggrToo

macrumors 68020
Aug 24, 2017
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Out there...way out there
I always read Forum posts extensively and therefore am not one of those foolish enough to upgrade to Catalina.
Therefore, I have no issues except with Catalina apologists that may influence others to upgrade.
So, what's next in your list of telling people what they should do?

You going to tell them to not eat foods that others have said they didn't like, but have never tasted yourself?

Is it also time to inform them not to drive certain cars because other people didn't like them, but you have never driven?

Or how about telling folk not to watch certain films because you heard from other people that they didn't like them, but you have never seen yourself?

I for one have had zero obvious issues with Catalina. I waited a couple of months before I did, and I had backups as well.

There's a huge difference between folk giving advice based on first hand personal experience, and those who are just opinionated, but have no actual experience.
 

theluggage

macrumors 601
Jul 29, 2011
4,650
3,471
Where in the daily prompt that users received bugging them to update their OS did it tell them and explain how to make a full, bootable backup in advance?
^^^This.

The daily nag boxes, spammed to experienced and inexperienced users alike, from day #1 of release 10.x.0 are just plain irresponsible. Not making it clear whether new machines come with Mojave or Catalina - and not providing a point-and-drool downgrade option for the first 6 months or so - is unprofessional ('upgrading' to a new machine isn't always a choice - machines fail and get stolen, end their leases, new employees arrive...)

Maybe Apple should take a look at Linux distributions like Ubuntu that maintain a long-term-support version alongside the latest "bleeding edge" version. Of course, they have a new 'bleeding edge' version every 6 months or so but I'm not saying copy their model exactly.

Not that the current situation with Windows is any better, but two wrongs don't make a right (Windows did effectively have a LTS version until this year - it was called Windows 7)
 

LuisN

macrumors 6502
Mar 30, 2013
417
359
Torres Vedras, Portugal
^^^This.

The daily nag boxes, spammed to experienced and inexperienced users alike, from day #1 of release 10.x.0 are just plain irresponsible. Not making it clear whether new machines come with Mojave or Catalina - and not providing a point-and-drool downgrade option for the first 6 months or so - is unprofessional ('upgrading' to a new machine isn't always a choice - machines fail and get stolen, end their leases, new employees arrive...)

Maybe Apple should take a look at Linux distributions like Ubuntu that maintain a long-term-support version alongside the latest "bleeding edge" version. Of course, they have a new 'bleeding edge' version every 6 months or so but I'm not saying copy their model exactly.

Not that the current situation with Windows is any better, but two wrongs don't make a right (Windows did effectively have a LTS version until this year - it was called Windows 7)
...and you can keep using High Sierra until the end of the year.
 

kohlson

macrumors 68020
Apr 23, 2010
2,329
691
I worked for years (decades actually) in commercial IT. The rule of thumb has always been "the newest (major) release a business will run is N-1." Lots of points supporting this thinking, but it boiled down to "because we need to get work done."
For myself, after the first several major releases that I regretted installing at .0, I usually jump in around .3 or .4. But I do recognize that millions more went before me.
- - Post merged: - -

provide procedures for regressing to Mojave
This isn't called "Time Machine?"
 

theluggage

macrumors 601
Jul 29, 2011
4,650
3,471
...and you can keep using High Sierra until the end of the year.
So a bit over 3 years, c.f. 5 years (for free ...extensible to 7 years with a subscription) for Ubuntu.

Then there's that 'new machine' problem I mentioned.
 

WilliamDu

macrumors regular
Original poster
May 22, 2012
218
89
So you, with no firsthand knowledge yourself, feel it's your duty to influence others not to upgrade? That's how I'm reading it. To me it kinda of feels like equal, but opposite reactions to the issue. Why not just not stop trying to influence others altogether?

Why insult those who have upgraded? In two separate posts you called those people foolish. And then insulted those who like Catalina.

And twice you've said the source of your wisdom was gleaned from forum posts. A place where people come with their problems. Therefore, not exactly an unbiased source. I'm not saying Catalina was a great release. But I wouldn't gauge its success on a forum where people come for help.

I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread.
Foolish was a mistake for which I apologize. I should have said impulsive.
There are sufficient and continuing posts to attest to the fact that Catalina still has problems. I choose to believe them without needing to try it out.
The point of the post was to state what it says. Apple has published a defective product from which they should provide relief for those needing it.
Not everyone can afford an external disc to ensure a safe Time Machine backup.
Users that depend on a stable system for their work should consider waiting for stability.
I'm glad many users are satisfied with Catalina. I look forward to adopting it when these posts cease reporting significant problems, particularly the kind still being reported, that would cause significant difficulties in processing my large iTunes investment between my iMacs and portable devices.
Apple has already done away with Genius Mixes on the Touch, one of my favorite features on my Classics.
What "improvements" will they come up with next?
I've used Apples since the Apple II, starting in '83, at home and professionally in an organization I built into thirty engineers using Macs when Jobs was still around. I've owned and enjoyed ten or so Macs over the years since then.
Apple's software QC has gone a long ways south but they're still the best show in town.
 

fisherking

macrumors 604
Jul 16, 2010
7,117
2,060
ny somewhere
Foolish was a mistake for which I apologize. I should have said impulsive.
There are sufficient and continuing posts to attest to the fact that Catalina still has problems. I choose to believe them without needing to try it out.
The point of the post was to state what it says. Apple has published a defective product from which they should provide relief for those needing it.
Not everyone can afford an external disc to ensure a safe Time Machine backup.
Users that depend on a stable system for their work should consider waiting for stability.
I'm glad many users are satisfied with Catalina. I look forward to adopting it when these posts cease reporting significant problems, particularly the kind still being reported, that would cause significant difficulties in processing my large iTunes investment between my iMacs and portable devices.
Apple has already done away with Genius Mixes on the Touch, one of my favorite features on my Classics.
What "improvements" will they come up with next?
I've used Apples since the Apple II, starting in '83, at home and professionally in an organization I built into thirty engineers using Macs when Jobs was still around. I've owned and enjoyed ten or so Macs over the years since then.
Apple's software QC has gone a long ways south but they're still the best show in town.
you do realize that we have had these discussions with every new mac os? and there are always users with issues... some of them OS related, some not. plus, things change (whether we like it or not).

but no one is forcing you to upgrade (yet, sigh). and catalina is just this years 'great/terrible' upgrade; all of this will repeat with the next os. ad infinitum....
 

Bazza1

macrumors regular
May 16, 2017
148
113
Toronto, Canada
I've never had any substantial issues with upgrading my MacOS - but goodness knows the company continues to be fixated on form over function / sparkly new 'features' over actual dealing with outstanding issues exacerbated or ignored by the most recent version.

Sloppy or bored, I have yet to figure it out - multiple developer / public Betas of software and then releasing a Gold product with obvious issues suggests both.
 

fisherking

macrumors 604
Jul 16, 2010
7,117
2,060
ny somewhere
I've never had any substantial issues with upgrading my MacOS - but goodness knows the company continues to be fixated on form over function / sparkly new 'features' over actual dealing with outstanding issues exacerbated or ignored by the most recent version.

Sloppy or bored, I have yet to figure it out - multiple developer / public Betas of software and then releasing a Gold product with obvious issues suggests both.
if you say so (altho some might argue, for example, that the move to a fully 64-bit architecture is a huge step forward). plus, if you bother to look up this info... there are other 'under the hood' improvements.
 

skippermonkey

macrumors 6502
Jun 23, 2003
368
815
Bath, UK
I was forced onto Catalina by a new Mac Pro purchase. But apart from the odd waking-from-sleep issue, I've not encountered a lot of the problems described by others.
 
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Bazza1

macrumors regular
May 16, 2017
148
113
Toronto, Canada
if you say so (altho some might argue, for example, that the move to a fully 64-bit architecture is a huge step forward). plus, if you bother to look up this info... there are other 'under the hood' improvements.
Doubtless some find that moving to 64 bit has changed their lives (some, not always for the better) and there are 'under the hood' changes that might have been necessary, but I would posit that for most users, they simply want the OS and the software that comes with it to work consistently and with as little fuss as possible - and to forgo any additional sparkly bits (like making my Mac an extension of iOS, or the ability to answer the phone from the computer) until, say, Mac Mail worked as expected all the time and was a serious competitor to 3rd Party products out there.

Users shouldn't need to bother looking up what 'improvements' they made - it should be obvious when we use the product.
 
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fisherking

macrumors 604
Jul 16, 2010
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Doubtless some find that moving to 64 bit has changed their lives (some, not always for the better) and there are 'under the hood' changes that might have been necessary, but I would posit that for most users, they simply want the OS and the software that comes with it to work consistently and with as little fuss as possible - and to forgo any additional sparkly bits (like making my Mac an extension of iOS, or the ability to answer the phone from the computer) until, say, Mac Mail worked as expected all the time and was a serious competitor to 3rd Party products out there.

Users shouldn't need to bother looking up what 'improvements' they made - it should be obvious when we use the product.
your last sentence is absolutely right. but for the rest... apple moves us forward, that's how tech works. otherwise, we'd still be using adb mice, scsi, power pc processors.

i agree that the 'glossy' features are just that; they lure people in... which is fine, we want apple to do well. but i care that my mac 'just works', and i can do my real work, and... in catalina, am doing just that.
 
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