Apple's iPhone market research - per WSJ

Discussion in 'iPhone' started by Rogifan, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. Rogifan macrumors P6

    Rogifan

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    #1
    So Apple does market research after all. According to the Wall Street Journal:

    Interesting that brand/design rates so high. Especially when the mantra seems to be that the iPhone is old and tired looking, a bit long in the tooth compared to the Android phones with larger screens.
     
  2. chambone macrumors 6502a

    chambone

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Location:
    Netherlands
    #2
    The 'old and tired looking brick' mantra comes from the handful of droid trolls on here. You obviously shouldn't take it seriously.
     
  3. Rogifan thread starter macrumors P6

    Rogifan

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    #3
    I dunno. There's so many these days they can't all be Fandroids can they?
     
  4. chambone macrumors 6502a

    chambone

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2011
    Location:
    Netherlands
    #4
    I don't know. I keep seeing the same nonsense coming from the same people. But maybe I should visit this place more often.
     
  5. Rufuss Sewell macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    #5
    Samsung sold twice as many phones last quarter as Apple. This survey is only iPhone owners.

    I love my 4S. But I'd like to see more choice for size in the iPhone line up. 4.5" pro, 3.5" 4S+, and a nano that looks like the long iPod nano with a home button instead of click wheel.

    I'd take the 4.5" but screen size is not important enough for me to go Android. For everything else I jailbreak.
     
  6. batting1000 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    #6
    No, they shipped twice as many, doesn't mean they told them all...
     
  7. mattopotamus macrumors G4

    mattopotamus

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2012
    #7
    I'm not really surprised b.c the phone's look and feel is very important to me. Opposite of most people on these forums, i do not want a much bigger screen. The current size is great for me and would be upset at anything larger than 4"....if it is larger, I would just keep my 4S. I also agree with the above poster that they need to add a little variety....maybe a 4" screen and a 4.5" screen, but i do not see that happening with apple. Why fix what is not broken.
     
  8. Rufuss Sewell macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    #8
    Their profits appear to back up strong sales.
     
  9. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    #9
    Well the Apple's brand sells itself. Apple has earned a reputation of good stable products and support. Many consumers(probably most) do rely on reputation instead of research(which can be a huge task for some). For me personally, the only product from Apple that truly sucks in their routers/airports. As long as Apple's brand isn't tarnished among the general public, many people will continue to purchase from them based on brand first.

    Design wise, The iPhone is near perfect, which is why most smartphones now have a similar design compared to beTfore iPhone.
     
  10. TitanTiger macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    #10
    You also have to consider that Samsung still sells a lot of different models of phones. They "shipped" 10 million Galaxy S III smartphones last quarter. But their entire product line extends all the way down to regular old "dumb" flip phones and candybar phones, as well as "feature" phones that merely give you a full QWERTY keyboard to do texting. When you look on their site right now, they have 147 models of phones currently available for sale.

    Not exactly a valid comparison.

    ----------

    No one said they weren't profitable. Just that the "sold twice as many" meme is bogus. It's not an even comparison.
     
  11. pdutta2000 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    #11
    I think the most important comment in the survey is "Trust Apple brand". People like to talk about Apple fans being iSheep, etc but the reality is that most of us have been burned by other manufacturers. Yeah, Apple might not do everything that other phones, computers, tablets, etc do but they do a lot of things really well and in most cases do the most important things very well. That breeds trust and when I'm about to spend $600 on a tablet or sign a 2 year contract for a phone I want to take as few risks as possible.

    Personally I've been burned by other makers which is why I'm sticking with iPhone. RIM screwed me on the original Storm and then the Tour 9630. RIM had my trust and lost it. I was all in on Blabkberry. I broke contracts, paid early term fees and both phones were crap. By my count RIM screwed me for around $700-800 on those phones. No more RIM in my future. It's not to say that I won't look at other phones but I'm going to give Apple the benefit of the doubt until they screw me because they've earned my trust. Brand loyalty could be the most important thing to any company and Apple hasn't done anything so obnoxious as to reduce that yet.
     
  12. kdarling, Jul 29, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012

    kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Location:
    Cabin by a lake
    #12
    Sure, but the same goes for Apple at times. Despite the common myth, Apple also announces retailer shipments as "sales", in addition to their own Apple store sales.

    As I pointed out in this post, Apple's announced "sales" (shipments) to retailers in the first quarter turned out to be high by about 2.6 million iPhones. That is, millions more were shipped than were sold through to end users.

    No one found out about it until this quarter's earnings call, when Apple had to explain why their current "sales" (shipments) were down so much more than anyone expected. The reason was because retailers had millions of iPhones already figuratively or literally sitting on their shelves.

    So yes, there are times that retailers overestimate demand and buy too many of anyone's devices. However, at this point there's almost zero reason to think that Samsung's end users sales aren't extremely strong. We know this from their profit reports, the continued ramp up of GS3 shipments, the continued Note sales, and the fact that carriers worldwide are reporting that Galaxy type phones are a very high percentage of their smartphone sales.

    When we add in non-smartphones, Samsung shipped FOUR times as many (~98 million).

    The "twice as many" (~50 million) only applies to smartphones.
     
  13. TitanTiger macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    #13
    True, I misread that. However, the definition of "smartphone" is pretty malleable with Samsung. It includes some extremely low end Android models that sell on TracFone and other carriers that don't even match the specs of an iPhone 3G or 3GS. Such phones aren't all that profitable and Apple historically chooses not to fight for customers on the low end of the market.

    But we also have a history with Samsung of talking shipped numbers that don't even come close to sell-through (witness, the "2 million Galaxy Tabs" shipped when sold ended up something in the low 6 figures). Apple is never anywhere close to that far off. So it still remains to be seen how many phones Samsung actually sold to consumers. I have no doubt they will end up selling more units because even in smartphones, they have dozens of models to spread that out over. Apple continues to gobble up the lion's share of the profits (as of earlier this year it was around 70% of the profits in the entire mobile market) and not caring about strict unit-based "market share." They've never needed to dominate unit sales to be wildly successful.

    Samsung's growth is mostly coming from taking sales away from other Android handset makers, which is fine. Apple will be happy to continue posting record quarters and making 3/4 of the profit.
     
  14. kdarling, Jul 29, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012

    kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Location:
    Cabin by a lake
    #14
    Ah, but Samsung wasn't the one who claimed 50 million smartphones.

    IDC's report did. For smartphone OSes, IDC counts Android, iOS, Symbian, RIM, Linux, Windows.

    Moreover, it wasn't just IDC. There were a number of analyst reports that all converged on 50 million.

    For the price, they stack up very well. For example, even a $120 (no contract) low end Samsung Android phone (compared to iPhone3G here) has 3G HSDPA/UPA, GPS, video, 800+MHz, USB 3.0, compass, FM stereo, 1200mAh battery, and is expandable cheaply to 32GB. About the only downside is the lesser screen resolution.

    We're talking about shipments, not profits, but it's clear to all that Apple has left the 3GS in place specifically to go after the low end market, and the 4 for the mid price market. They know that high end buyers often start with lower end phones.

    Yep, that's the isolated example that everyone points back to. That's probably a big factor why Samsung themselves have stopped posting numbers unless they are valid major milestones.

    The "sales vs shipments" meme is overused and misused. It distracts us from the topic to no good purpose.

    --

    Back on topic, we should go check if Apple commissioned this survey (which was found in court documents) specifically to use in their trials. Through.out the lawsuits, they have brought in outside experts many times to give depositions about whether or not designs were obvious, and to say why people like iPhones. This one, with its emphasis on design, a primary trial key, feels like one of those, instead of being a common undertaking.
     
  15. Rogifan thread starter macrumors P6

    Rogifan

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    #15
    Yet they still only have half the profits of Apple which leads me to believe most of those 50M phones were cheap ones or BOGO.
     
  16. Vegastouch macrumors 603

    Vegastouch

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    #16
    67% of that was from China which was the highest group.

    I think the only place it needs a new look is the front. It has the same look there since 2007. Otherwise it does looks nice and i think we Americans get spoiled by things looking different every few years.
    We like change and when the iPhone only has one phone and the front is the same every year, i just think it gets stale and for those getting a new one, they just want it to look a little different than the ones they had previous.

    ----------

    OK, they shipped twice as many. :rolleyes: Go look at the internet and some say shipped and some say sold but the numbers are the same for both companies.

    Just so you know, those 9 million GS3's you kept saying was only "shipped"..... ...well they sold all those and then some but keep being anal about things.

    ----------

    No it means Apple charges you more to buy their products. How much profit you think is in a Nexus 7? Not much @ $199 but there is plenty in a iPad3 @ $499. Dont get me wrong, i like to see an American company do well even if they have them built in China but they still charge too much for their products imo.

    Its not like they are paying a premium to have them built.
     
  17. Rogifan thread starter macrumors P6

    Rogifan

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    #17
    Samsung doesn't make the nexus 7 and google doesn't care if it makes a profit on hardware. Samsung doesn't break down their smartphone sales. I doubt the Galaxy S III is that much cheaper than the 4s that it would result in Samsung earning half the profits of Apple. The estimates we got on the S III was 10 million shipped. The estimates of total smartphones shipped was 50M. I still argue a large percentage of that figure is lower end smartphones or BOGO.
     
  18. batting1000 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Location:
    Florida
    #18
    I'm talking about the 52 million devices shipped by Samsung figure someone threw out the other day.
     
  19. kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Location:
    Cabin by a lake
    #19
    What do you think a carrier BOGO deal means to the manufacturer?
     
  20. Vegastouch macrumors 603

    Vegastouch

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    #20
    I didnt say they did. What i said was Apple charges you more for their products.


    The GS3 is $100 cheaper than the 4S off contract and it is the newest and best phone out right now. And that 10 million is sold. They shipped out 9 million intially and announced they have sold 10 million world wide.

    ----------

    I know what your talking about and im telling you the 9 million figure you also said was "shipped" are now sales plus 1 million more. Shipped, sold...who cares! Its not like i care, we all know Apples figures will go up when the new iPhone comes out.
     
  21. Rogifan thread starter macrumors P6

    Rogifan

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    #21
    I'm assuming BOGO's are for cheaper models. Are there any stats on carriers offering BOGO with Galaxy S III?

    Bottom line I don't believe Samsung's profits are half of Apples due to their flagship phone being less expensive than the 4S. That may be part of it but more likely is the Galaxy S III doesn't make up the majority % of their total smartphone sales. If the estimates are correct it's about 20%.

    ----------

    yes because Apple is in the business of making money off their hardware whereas Google and Amazon aren't. And Samsung is probably OK with smaller margins in the pursuit of market share. But Samsung should be careful what the wish for. Eventually they'll become the big, bad evil one that needs to be cut down to size like Apple is right now.
     
  22. kdarling macrumors demi-god

    kdarling

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Location:
    Cabin by a lake
    #22
    Too early. They probably will, if they end up with excess inventory.

    BOGO is meaningless as far as phone maker revenues go, of course. The maker still got the non-BOGO price.

    (BOGO is just the carrier offering half the usual user upfront payment for each phone. E.g. a $200 smartphone on contract going two for $200 is just $100 off each one's upfront cost. They still each bring in the carrier $1,200 -$2,000 in contract payments over two years. That's each. Locking in TWO longterm customers is quite a nice return for the carrier's $100 each promotion.)

    There's a bunch of facts and factors we can use to figure it out:

    Samsung's mobile revenue did include 48 million dumbphones which wholesale for $30-100 each, with a profit margin as low as 5%. That leaves an average selling price for the 50 million smartphones as around $300 each.

    According to most analysts, Samsung averages about 22-25% profit margin on their smartphones.

    Carriers have said that they pay about 40% more subsidy for iPhones as compared to other smartphones. Assuming it's true that carriers pay an average $625 ($425 subsidy) for iPhones, then that would be $500 ($300 subsidy) for others.

    From recently unsealed court documents (Apple's formerly great secrecy is getting hit due from all the info coming out from their lawsuits) we know that Apple gets 49% to 58% gross profit margin on iPhones.

    More after I've had dinner :)
     
  23. Zaft macrumors 68030

    Zaft

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Location:
    NYC
    #23
    people who want to run there phone as server is a 0.5% minority. Hence the android people that post here acting like apple will die tomorrow.

    :D
     
  24. b166er macrumors 68020

    b166er

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2010
    Location:
    Philly
    #24
    I do trust the apple brand to be reliable and stable. I have had a great experience with all my apple products. However, I had a couple Samsung phones back in the day that were amazing, and I think Samsung makes great electronics aside from their phone lineup. I'm kind of glad to see that Samsung is Apple's biggest threat because Samsung deserves the success more so than other brands, in my opinion. I'm probably going to check out a Samsung phone in the near future, but it's just because I am getting a little too used to iOS and I'd like to learn the ins and outs of Android. I am by no means abandoning Apple. I wouldn't give up my MBP for anything, I still use an iPod classic daily, and my iPad has taken over most of my web browsing and reading.

    Both brands are great. Otherwise they wouldn't be at each others throats.
     
  25. Vegastouch macrumors 603

    Vegastouch

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    #25
    Apple will not die but if they do get into trouble again, Mr. Jobs is not around to save them this time. That said, i dont wish for them to get into trouble.
     

Share This Page