Are Borders the Worst Invention Ever ?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Plutonius, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Plutonius macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #1
    The chief of the EU, Jean-Claude Juncker, recently claimed that borders are the worst invention ever.

    Is he correct about nationalism or is he just trying to hold things together after the Brexit vote ?
     
  2. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #2
    What an idiotic statement (not yours, his).
     
  3. zin macrumors 6502

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    Well, when you support a European federal superstate I can see why borders would be a problem.
     
  4. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #4
    Would he accept an African superstate that includes geographical Europe and with the center of power located in Timbuktu, or does he like borders in that case?
     
  5. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #5
    There are two things broadly that have caused wars continuously..... religion and borders.
     
  6. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #6
    You should probably open an nice book on history before making such broad claims that minimize the complexities of the human experience.
     
  7. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #7
    Well in a way I can understand what Juncker's staying. Or rather I have sometimes thought we get more and more ridiculous drawing lines around smaller and smaller subsets of ourselves. Pretty soon it will be like back when there was a pizza shop just at 103rd & Broadway and another a block away. Run by related families, but customers were expected to declare loyalty to just one, or suffer a certain amount of disrespect.

    It's a little bit like catering to sibling rivals' hissy fits to keep redrawing borders to accommodate nationalist feelings.
     
  8. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #8
    My statement doesn't suggest there is no nuance, hence the use of the word "broadly" ;)
     
  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #9
    Well, we do that anyways when we look for our own privacy for example or when we look after our family but not a random guy on the next street. I don't accept that someone in a position of power as Mr Junker makes such simplicistic statements. If he really believes that, then say goodbye to the EU as he does not understand history.
     
  10. ibookg409, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016

    ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #10
    This statement is idiotic. A nation is defined by its border, language, and culture. If you have no borders then you have no nation. If your property has no defined border then you own nothing. this guy is a globalist nut job.
     
  11. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #11
    It's just that I'm not sure why it's become almost a fad now to think separate is better and so special and deserving of recognition for realizing it. I mean aside from that selling newspapers. Overreach from Brussels is one thing (and the countries have reps there so should ask themselves have I said yes when meant no, and why??) but I hope there will be no throwing baby out with bathwater if countries now queue up for special arrangements and have in mind threatening to leave as the alternative.
     
  12. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #12
    Well, the thing is that religion, resources (natural or not), and the common experience/suffering is what caused the creation/evolution of civilizations, and of course the creation of borders. It is a natural consequence that people fight for that. Borders are just a consequence.
     
  13. thermodynamic Suspended

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    #13
    Well, one-liners won't begin to address the actual problems the world faces, assuming he has the stamina and IQ to really get into the more granular nuances, but if he gets off on scapegoating borders why should it matter what floats his boat?

    Assuming other countries' leaders agree with his fantasy, which they obviously won't...

    Am not saying I agree or disagree, or how having borders are the cause or solution...

    I will opine that terrorists will probably find it easier to get through non-borders... how much detail did he go into that? And for all the valid points he makes, how will he convince the whole of the world that his way is best, especially the terrorists who seem to rather want to destroy everything than to be a positive part of a global community? (On edit: now having read the article, that's the focus - the problems with terrorism and refugees and related issues. But the scope of borders is far more complex than his being all JohnLennon and not remaining in reality, unless he can pass enough pills like how the hippies tried ~48 years ago. But the scope is much larger than his idealism, much less any plans he has to actually fix problems.)

    Also, borders seemed to have been great when America was scapegoated for poor manufacturing quality, as one of many excuses to go offshore (since the sole goal here was higher profits for the top, which have not trickled back down as enough graphs and charts have proven). But let's talk quality: Nowdays, every Macbook with a dent or dim screen, every light fixture with holes in a lampshade scratches or flange, support call lasting 3x or longer because the other person at the other end of the phone doesn't understand and no amount of autotune and name changing is going to convince anyone with a 2-digit IQ how they're too cowardly to use their own names and national pride so they try to hide it with half-baked technology, or transmission that goes kaput because it was poorly designed and made in another country, all seem to get a free pardon as if other countries can never do any wrong, only America does wrong. Never mind how bad protectionism is, at least when America tries it but when other countries try it they're all encouraged, despite lower quality and issues stemming from that. How many issues are all intertwined to borders, which may or may not be good or bad but my response barely scratches the surface to an issue so intricate that his post clearly refuses to dig into.
     
  14. yaxomoxay, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016

    yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

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    #14
    Well that's another issue. I haven't lived in Europe long enough to know not to judge internal European matters, but I suppose that it's a mix of lost identity (you can't push a common identity on the very same countries that fought for several centuries), lost resources (economical crisis), and lack of a common purpose (technocrats in Brussels ruined a good concept).
     
  15. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #15
    I completely disagree with this. Borders are necessary. Declaring loyalty to a particular nation is important. I don't want to be part of a polyglot world order. I'm American. I want to be American. If I want to be German I'll move to German. If I want to live by sharia law and to put my wife in a full body tent I'll move to Saudi Arabia (or Germany).

    Your analogies make no sense. We are talking about nation borders and vastly different cultures, not rival pizza joints and sibling rivalries.
     
  16. cube macrumors G5

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  17. lowendlinux Contributor

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    #17
    I'm all about open borders in the summer but everyone can go home in the winter. The varieties of ladies walking around in shorts and tank tops makes summer in the city great
     
  18. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #18
    I think the notion that borders are a consequence is a rather simplistic view. But you're entitled to it.
     
  19. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

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    #19
    Well, to be clear. A consequence of very complex factors.
     
  20. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #20
    The EU serves a function that permits maintenance of cultures and that was intended to facilitate mobility as well as simplify trade arrangments amongst its member states. That in the process of rethinking some of that in the press of current geopolitical upheavals elsewhere, I hope they will remember why they went down the EU road to begin with.

    Your "vastly different cultures" is possibly a reference to Muslims? Even at the pizza shops you could get served if you weren't of Italian descent. It was only in some local bars that ethnicity sometimes mattered. After a few rounds.

    I remember reading earlier that Germany had realized it needed to help Muslim immigrants understand and respect European attitudes towards women as equals in society, etc. and make such awareness a part of the orientation process for new arrivals. Surely other countries can adopt similar ways of helping the refugees fit in. That there are bumps in a road doesn't mean pull up drawbridges, exit EU, go it alone. Why would a country prefer to recomplicate its international affairs in that manner? Does not make sense.
     
  21. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

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    #21
    Borders were not really an issue until travel became cheap. Cheap ships, planes, and cars, are what made borders an issue.
     
  22. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #22
    mmm, I think that there were quite a few wars to change borders... unless you equate borders with immigration.
    --- Post Merged, Aug 23, 2016 ---
    Really? Come on @LizKat I hold you in high esteem, I don't believe for a second that you believe that an "orientation process" can work...
     
  23. oneMadRssn macrumors 68040

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    #23
    Sure, but what were those wars really about? Taking control of a city for it's central trade routes. Taking control of strategic geographic area, such as a valley, a river, or a bay. Taking control of an area with natural resources, such as salt, gold, diamonds, fresh water, etc. Taking control of land that carries some religious significance. Sure the wars happened to change borders, but the wars were not about the border lines themselves as much as some natural or historic reason something within those borders was appealing.

    Until building ships became cheap, trains, planes, and cars, all countries has free and unregulated immigration, there was no such thing as border patrol or passports, and generally everyone allowed free movement throughout (although only the super rich could really afford to go anywhere).
     
  24. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #24
    Well, of course. As I said previously borders were a consequence. Now I understand what you meant.
     
  25. Huntn macrumors G5

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    #25
    Borders, grouping, tribalism, categorization, is part of who/what we are, a characteristic of advance biological organisms.
     

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