Are we a Christian Nation?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by halfprep455, Apr 7, 2007.

  1. halfprep455 macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #1
    Many people especially on the Ultra Right seem to think that this country is a Christian nation that was founded on Christan values. First off, none of the founding fathers were truly Christians. THEY WERE DEISTS!! A Deist is somesome one who belives that God created the universe but has left it alone to its own freewill. Second, our laws are not directly based off of the 10 commandments. They are based off of English Common Law. They are also loosely based off the Code of Hamarrabi. Also in one of Washingtons adresses to the city of Tripoli in 1797, he specifically stated that the US WAS NOT BASED ON CHRISTANITY AND THAT WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION!!!!!! So all of the people on the Ultra Right are actually anti-American!
     
  2. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    OBJECTIVE reality
    #2
    While there were always religious fanatics in this country, it seems all this crapola started with the Southern Baptist Conference in the late 1970s. There was a battle for control of that faith between the moderates and the fundies, and the fundies won, causing the moderates to split off into a separate church in the 1980s. The fundies always had political ambitions, and that's when they began to support the Reagans and Bushes of this country. Unfortunately, they were very well-funded and well-organized, and most if not all other faiths, being averse to the idea of manipulating politics, did little if anything to counter them.

    I think we need to rethink our view of these people. In the 1950s McCarthy warned us of a Communist "menace" that wasn't really there. Yet the fundies are a genuine menace to Constitutional government. Perhaps we need to stop saying, "Oh, they're entitled to their opinion," and start treating them like what they are: a subversive group intent on overthrowing the government and replacing it with a virtual theocracy.

    Trust me, the country wasn't always like this. You may be horrified by what's going on, but some of us older members have seen the horror of watching this country morph from a thriving democracy to a pitiful, warped shadow of its former self. It is sickening.
     
  3. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #3
    I think it is time the ACLU and the Media started to really go after these extreamists. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and the other fundimental extreamist Christians are as much of a threat if not MORE of a threat to our country and democracy then Osama Bin-Laden, Al-Queda, Kim Jong Il, Iran, Hamas, and China put together!
     
  4. OnceUGoMac macrumors 6502a

    OnceUGoMac

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    #4
    Uh, yeah...where to begin...

    First, several of the founding fathers were thought to be deist, that is all. If that were true (which, I do) that still doesn't negate the majority of others that were Christian.

    Second, the colonies were founded by Puritans. The majority of Christian people that I know here have their denominations rooted in Puritanism.

    Third, we are very much a Christian (and conservatively so) nation compared to others. While we do not have a state religion, we're pretty far right religiously.

    Your rant is full of strawmans and errors. Did you just get out of a history class or something?
     
  5. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #5
    No I did not get this from History class. I think for myself, not what the school system tells me to think. We are NOT a Christan nation. Geroge Washington even said so in a public address in 1797. Yes, we were settled by Puritans BUT the Puritans had lost most of their influence and power by the time of the American Revolution. I am sick and tired of our private lives being influenced by these facist ultra right wingers! First off why do these people think they need to influence what people do with their own lives. Im so sick and tired of it!
     
  6. srf4real macrumors 68030

    srf4real

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Location:
    paradise beach FL
    #6
    :eek: If anyone thinks these ^ ^ organizations have a clue how to make a successful nation they deserve what they get.! :rolleyes: I am a follower of Jesus and all my family and extended family, most of our friends and co-workers claim Christianity as their faith; believe it or not outside of the liberal extremist college campuses here and there this actually is a nation in which Jesus owns the majority. Now who is moving here from other nations and the faith which they proclaim may differ, but even the latin americans are mostly Roman Catholic.;)
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #7
    There is also the small matter of a not inconsiderable number of animists who were living in your country before you lot even got there...
     
  8. srf4real macrumors 68030

    srf4real

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Location:
    paradise beach FL
    #8
    Oh, you mean the natives!? They couldn't fight for sh*^!:p
     
  9. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #9
    The majority of the people in places where you live may be conservitive Christans, but that doen not mean that ANY laws in the nation should be based off of any religion. I consider myself a Christian but I strongly belive that the Government should never pass laws or legislation based off any religion. This country is becoming more of a theocracy every day!
     
  10. srf4real macrumors 68030

    srf4real

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2006
    Location:
    paradise beach FL
    #10
    Now don't get me wrong, halfprep455, I'm with you. And most of the people who call themselves Christians would make better pagans. I have a sarcastic humour about me. But the ACLU would give equal rights to cockroaches to be in my home, and take away my right to squash the little buggers. And the media would slant the story to make me look like a crazed axe murderer running around making it my life's work to eradicate every cockroach from the face of the earth. But I just don't want them in my house.:cool:

    I'm in pest control. *cocks 9mm
     
  11. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #11
    I agree with you that the ACLU does go over board sometimes. The ACLU really pisses me off when they start to defend groups such as NAMBLA but that is a diffrent story. However, without the ACLU, our rights would, without doubt, be trampled on. I think over all the ACLU's message is good but they do go overboard. In fact, if they didnt go overboard so much, they would be a lot more powerful then thhey are now.
     
  12. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Location:
    Sod off
    #12
    Officially speaking, no. Demographically speaking, well, it depends...the majority of Americans were raised in a nominally Christian family - American culture and moral values are strongly shaped by Christianity, and our interpretation of our legal code throughout the last two centuries reflects that to a significant extent.

    ...a number which had been considerably reduced by brutal British colonial efforts before the United States even existed...I think the point clouds the issue somewhat. You and I share equal responsibility in that, if you want to get technical.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #13
    I'm not seeking to apportion blame (and anyway the French and the Spanish presumably did their bit).
     
  14. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #14
    The founding fathers fought amongst themselves, did not subscribe to any one unified philosophy. They were all over the board on economics, sociology, political science, etc. Too many people speak of them as if they were deities themselves. Their importance in today's world is over-inflated. What they did hand down were the constitution and bill of rights.

    Unfortunately, both have been subverted by those able to twist it to their own political agenda. The Supreme Court has become a pathetic joke.

    The emergence of the Political Religious Right is a blight on our nation. This group is NOT the unified voice of the American Christian. In fact, I would be surprised if it even spoke for the majority. Most of these churches came out of the southern states. Their leaders are more like a slimy southern used car salesman (probably were at one point). There is a large part of any population who are sheep. They want to be led. They want security. They want to be part of a group. These churches know how to predate them. They fleece them of their money, and get them to fear everyone else. Then they have a perfect army of unthinking drones, completely captured. I really feel sorry for these people. There should be a law called "Religious Sheep Rustling".
     
  15. OnceUGoMac macrumors 6502a

    OnceUGoMac

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    #15
    I believe the majority of people say they think for themselves, so it's a moot point. The Puritans lost their influence by the time of the American revolution? Perhaps, you should go back and study the texts a bit more or just look around you. We're still a Puritan people. Again, strawman arguments aren't working for you.

    Wait, so we are a Christian nation now?

    You're confusing two different issues: Religion in Government and Religion in the country. I agree, religion shouldn't have a direct role in government, but to discount its influence is quite illogical. Again, do more research before making blanket statements and over-generalizations and get back to me.
     
  16. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #16
    Puritan? I hardly think so. You may find scattered populations of puritans in the NE but they really don't exist in today's world, they're a fantasy brought out by those who trumpet christian nationalism. Perhaps you should examine your statements for strawmen. Especially since the US savings rate last year was a negative one percent. That's about as far away from Puritan values that you can get if you ask me. Somehow I doubt all those big spenders were non xians...

    I think it's pretty fair to say that the majority of Americans who believe in a supreme being are Protestants. Remember M. Luther? What about all those sects and cults that sprang up in the NE in the 1800s. Mary Baker Eddie, the Angel Moroni, etc, etc. Americans are rarely religious in the truest sense of the word, they're constantly rejecting established sects and cults and creating new ones. What they're after is an antidote to the world they've created. Unfortunately, it doesn't really exist because greed is deeply ingrained in the American psyche.
     
  17. OnceUGoMac macrumors 6502a

    OnceUGoMac

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    #17
    I agree with you on many points, but your miscontruing what I posted. The economic one is a ridiculous point and has no bearing on the ideals, you know this. What I meant by a Puritan people is not so much a generalization of the beliefs of our people, but of the influence itself. God having a direct relationship with social and government issues does exist today and is the foundation of Puritinism. If you fail to recognize the battles ongoing in this nation, you are blind indeed. Gay Marriage/ Creationism/ Prohibition/ Abortion/ Stem Cell Research/ Gambling/ need I go on? The idea that our laws and social framework should focus so heavily on these issues shows how strong the movement still remains with us. It's a divided nation politically, but not religiously. That is my point. You said yourself that the majority of Americans are Protestant, no?
     
  18. halfprep455 thread starter macrumors regular

    halfprep455

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland USA
    #18
    Like I said earlier, Im just sick and tired of these Ultra rightwing religious nut jobs! I can't believe that in the 21st century, there are states that still have extreamly outdated laws that they sometimes enforce. For example, the Alabama Sex Toy ban, N.C.'s ban on Cohabitation, N.D.'s ban on cohabitation, most of the southern states still outlaw any sex position except the missionary position. And to top it off, Alabama still had a law on the books banning inter racial marriage! That law did not get repealed until the year 2000! This country is becoming a theocracy at an alarming rate. I do not understand for the life of me why people like Pat Robertson are takin seriously. Also, this country is still debating weather schools should teach evolution! WTF!!!!!! Are these right wing nut jobs stuck back in the 19th century. I wish the Deep South would just break away again. We do not need them. There slowing down the progress of our nation.
     
  19. OnceUGoMac macrumors 6502a

    OnceUGoMac

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    #19
    I think I see your point now. I believe that our politics tend to be cyclical. Some periods are more conservative than others and vice versa. We are, indeed, in a conservative period. It's been a long 6 years, yeah?
     
  20. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #20
    You're certainly cherry picking here. Economic frugality was a major tenant of puritanism. Wikipedia has a rather good definition of Puritanism and the relatively small impact they had on US history. If anything, the Puritans were moderates in comparison to some of the hard core sects that sprang up in the US. Largely as a result of the hard core protestant movements in Europe.

    Your definition has little to do with the reality of early life in the colonies. They came for economic freedom mostly and were forced to defend their religion. In some cases, repression of religious expression in the colonies was far greater than in Europe.

    To claim that Puritanism is American is laughable much less to claim that Puritanism is the foundation of today's ills. Europe found a mostly solid peace in regards to religion by the mid 1800s. Unfortunately, the American solution is to continually reinvent religion for reasons of wealth and power. God has nothing to do with relgion in America. Once again, it's all about greed.
     
  21. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #21
    But when you've been indoctrinated from birth and grown up in a society that places religion as the pinnacle of virtue you don't see things that way.
     
  22. OnceUGoMac macrumors 6502a

    OnceUGoMac

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    #22
    Again, your miscontruing what I posted and adding dialogue to fit your argument. The Puritan work ethic has nothing to do with its religious principles. That's like saying that Judaism is rooted in banking. I never said Puritanism is American. Point that out to me, please. To allude that the many splits within sects and denominations is solely due to greed and power is fair and passionate, yet senseless. Again, the central ideal to Puritanism is Gods direct involvement in social structure and government. Unless the Stuart retribution from the Restoration was a mere coincidence, to say they fled England because of economics is laughable. Puritanism didn't die with Cromwell. God has nothing to do with religion in America? Explain that statement.
     
  23. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #23
    It has everything to do with its religious principles. The Puritans wanted to strip the C of E of all its papal trappings which were more suited to a king than the house of god. They wanted nothing extraneous just like the calvinists, the wesleyan methodists, etc. They brought that principle with them to the colonies where frugality was not only holy but necessary due to the lack of infrastructure. They didn't flee England for economic reasons, they went to the colonies for economic reasons, there's a huge difference. After the Thirty Years War there was more than enough religous freedom for them in Europe, what there wasn't was economic freedom to expand their businesses. Religion was a secondary reason for emigration.

    Religion in America doesn't concern itself with god. The megachurches that are blighting the landscape are proof of that. It's all about the glory of the individual and personal magnetism. Ever since Tammy Faye shed her crocodile tears, god has taken last place to the cult of personality and the inability of most americans to have any control of their lives due to corporate malfeasance, and, must I say it again, greed.
     
  24. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #24
    I think Ugg's point about the savings rate was valid indeed. I also do not think it is in anyway focused on economics. You seem to have missed the boat there. He was very clear to describe this as a value of Puritanical beliefs.

    I agree with you that the influence of religion on policy exists. However, I am not sure it is 'Puritan' influence, unless we are to adopt 'puritanical' to describe all religious influence. I think the term has become accepted to actually mean exactly that.

    Many of the religious sects, which came to the new world, were not the brave pioneers, looking to escape tyranny, as they are often depicted to be. In reality, they were closer to the Jim Jones's People's Temple moving to Guyana. Their social beliefs were out of line with the rest of their country's society. It was not necessarily their core religious dogma, although they were usually extreme in their interpretation.

    The definition of a Christian, at the lowest denominator, is anyone who believes that Jesus Christ was the son of God. Beyond that basic belief, anyone can shape their own version of Christianity, and they definitely do. That is why one Church has Ministers who are Gay, and another one which believes they are an abomination to God. Both Christian, totally different beliefs on that subject. Catholics are definitely conservative about all things sexual. But, they are completely open to the consumption of alcohol. And the list goes on and on.

    The constitutional rights, to religious beliefs, is not the same as using religion to justify a political agenda. I want to see issues decided on their merit, not by what it says in the Bible.
     
  25. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #25
    I am 100% with you on this, especially greed. They call this the "Me" age; it is all about Me! You see it everywhere. It is contagious. It destroys moral fabric and group cohesion. People who should know better have become blind to it. We have created 2-3 generations who do not even know the difference. There is another thread about SW piracy here. Many young people there do not even understand the basic principle of stealing. I mean, they just do not know the difference. They are not letting us down, we let them down.
     

Share This Page