Are we at war with ISIS or simply launching a significant anti-terrorist operation?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 63dot, Sep 12, 2014.

  1. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #1
    Secretary Kerry mentioned that while we are launching a major counter-terrorist operation against ISIS, that we are not at "war" with them.

    This morning I am listening to FOX and they start criticizing Secretary of State Kerry's reluctance to call our operations against ISIS an actual war.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-kerry-no-need-for-war-fever-in-isis-operations/

    Whatever the name of the operation against ISIS, with a multinational coalition and major military plans to possibly involve Syria, is this a war? Does it matter what we call it? Is the reluctance of calling this a war a sign of weakness in Obama's administration? Would be calling it a war legitimize ISIS as an actual (rogue) state?
     
  2. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2011
    Location:
    Germany
    #2
    It's just rhethorics, remember that Korea was just about "policing" or that it took the german goverment 7 year to call our involvment in Afghanistan a war (and even then only in a half-sentence by the defence-minister).
     
  3. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Location:
    HR 9038 A
    #3
    Well, there's the issue.
     
  4. 63dot, Sep 12, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2014

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #4
    I think Obama didn't come out swinging as much as he should have but a major anti-terrorism strategy which includes bombing Syria seems to be enough for me.

    It's a war in the fact that we use weapons (jets, advisers, maybe troops later on) and I don't think we need to legitimize a thug group like ISIS by agreeing with them and calling them a nation. The two nations they reside in are having the actual nations (Syria and Iraq) battle against them. ISIS has no real home base and no apparent organization with chain of command and no rep at the UN. They are a criminal enterprise and nothing else though we should spare no expense at destroying them. 32,000 troops (a possibly high estimate) spread across a large area does a nation make.

    Like Kerry mentions, it's more like going against Al Qaeda than it is to actually fighting a standing army of a legitimate nation. If you want the definition of war, then that was the USA and allies going against Saddam Hussein and the 4th largest army in the world (375,000 troops and 2,200 tanks).

    ----------

    Exactly, as they are nothing more than an ad for the GOP. While there are liberal leaning news agencies, none are a lockstep democratic party commercial. FOX at times seems to be a bully pulpit for McCain, Boehner, Cruz, and Paul to sling arrows at the Obama administration. I notice that they never seem to disagree with any of these GOP leaders in any interviews and FOX seems like an infomercial for the GOP's hopes in 2014 and later 2016. They call themselves FOX news but the "news" part is often not there.

    If our operations against ISIS goes well, FOX will find a snippet from one of their "liberal" commentators and take credit for supporting the president. But if the ISIS counter-terrorism operations don't go well, FOX will use this as an opportunity to push for the GOP in 2016 and tell everybody they told us so for not taking them seriously and call this whole thing a war. I don't care what politicians call this as long as we take good opportunities (backed by solid intel) and hit ISIS targets in Syria with either air power and/or special operations operators.

    UPDATE:

    So much for going with what Kerry just said about this not being a "war" but the consensus is that it's not the full scale version of what happened over a decade ago. But if Obama overshoots on this one, or even gets drawn in through mission creep, at least all bets are off now since it is, as of today, officially called a war.:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/obama-administration-says-u-s-war-isis-n202336
     
  5. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #5
    Korea is a conflict (and still not ended, it is in armistice)
    Viet Nam was a police action...

    This is just some "advisors" and of course we are bombing because we care.
     
  6. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Location:
    America's Third World
    #6
    So do we need to readjust the Doomsday Clock?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #7
    By comparison and scale, those look more like wars versus what we are doing against ISIS.

    By sheer length of action both Afghanistan and Iraq were wars, sometimes seemingly wars with no end and no exit strategy. Some say ISIS is a result of us having puled out too soon and even though I don't want to admit it, John McCain made a pretty good argument on CNN.

    That being said, our resolve to continue Gulf War II was waning and it appeared any real threat against the new ruling power was remote at best. As much as the most vehement critics of George W Bush were, nobody was saying that there was enough left over to relaunch an offensive of the likes of ISIS.

    It just shows how much we don't know the region or its people. Even if we destroy ISIS, which seems very doable due to their 32,000 (and not 375,000 troops like Saddam's army), what's not to say there won't be a newer, more cunning enemy of the USA built largely by anti-American sentiment five or ten years down the line? From the liberation of Kuwait to the final ouster of the last major terrorist threat in Iraq, we may have our own 30 Years War' in the region and similarly without any real winner.

    Some are saying we can just forget ISIS and let the region hash it out, but they drew us in at least to the endpoint of ISIS due to the two Americans they killed. There's no way out, especially with the strong stance the White House has now taken, and anything less than the destruction of ISIS in Syria and Iraq will be seen as a huge defeat for Obama. It may not be the legacy he wanted to be remembered for, but defeating ISIS will be his major victory or major defeat of his time in office.
     
  8. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #8
    It looks like ISIS/ISIL is doing a pretty good job for the JV team.
     
  9. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    #9
    I can agree with this, but I'd say that what we have with IS and the people they are terrorizing is the equivalent to defending human freedom against Cobra.

    BL.
     
  10. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Location:
    Space--The ONLY Frontier
    #10
    Had you lived through the Vietnam Era or been in the military in the 1950's thru 1975 you would know the "police action" in Vietnam was called "The Vietnam War" by everybody except the administrations running it.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
     
  11. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    #11

    There is certainly something to be said for changing the name of the Department of Defense back to the War Department. "DoD" is rather Orwellian.

    But, I think the point they are trying to make is that ISIL/ISIS is not a state with which another state can negotiate, or, have a war with. And, they want to make sure it stays that way.

    But, that really isn't the issue, is it? The issue is whether or not it makes sense to intervene.
     
  12. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #12
    We went from DoW to DoD, but world police would suffice more. On one hand it's good that there's somebody who will take on dictators/terrorists, but the bad thing is that it's my country playing "cop". I can't think of any police department who kills a whole bunch of innocents en route to catching the bad guy.

    While I can't think of a way out of the current ISIS war, we can't go on taking up arms every time a rogue group comes up. Just like the Middle East was just on the horizon when the US was putting out fires in Central America, we have North Africa staring us in the face after our last job in the Middle East. From the late-1970s until now, it's been about intervening and playing cop and there doesn't seem to be any final exit strategy or end to small, regional wars.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. sim667 macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    #13
    How was Vietnam in anyway a police action?

    It was a travesty..... Not a police action, there were no police there, there were soldiers who abused their powers, raped, murdered and pillaged their way across a country in the name of fighting communism.
     
  14. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Location:
    República Cascadia
    #14
    Truman called Korea a "police action" after a reporter suggested it. I don't think anyone called Vietnam a police action, the term "police action" was already subject to general mockery when Vietnam started.
     
  15. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #15
    For you fans of Schrodinger, we are definitely doing something/nothing:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Location:
    America's Third World
    #16
    U.S. government officials of the era usually referred to Vietnam as a "conflict", i.e., the "Vietnam Conflict".
     
  17. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Location:
    República Cascadia
    #17
    Good observation.
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #18
    They should have just called it a slight disagreement.
     
  19. impulse462 Suspended

    impulse462

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2009
    #19
    A little squabble.
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #20
    Lovers' tiff.
     
  21. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Location:
    The Far Horizon
    #21
    A difference of opinion……expressed somewhat forcefully.
     
  22. Carlanga macrumors 604

    Carlanga

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #22
    The issue there is you trying to get real info from Fox News :D

    Colbert did talk about this war vs anti-terror OP beautifully yesterday. They all are using it interchangeably, even the secretary of state lol. In the end does it really matter though?
     
  23. Liberty. macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    #24
    What shall we do with an angry jihadist ... early in the morning.
     

Share This Page