Are we pushing Russia too hard?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rhonindk, Aug 3, 2017.

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Are we pushing Russia too hard?

  1. No. We need to push / punish them further

    24 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Yes. Russia is being pushed to far economically

    6 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. Not Sure.

    9 vote(s)
    18.8%
  4. Mexi Midget for Russian President

    5 vote(s)
    10.4%
  5. LizKat for Russian PM

    17 vote(s)
    35.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Rhonindk macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #1
    Was watching a show last night and one of the topics was the state of Russia.
    Many might not know that the Russian economy is primarily petroleum driven. The cost of oil has a direct impact on it's economy. Between the drive for energy independence here in the US, and the current pricing/production drive by OPEC (and Venezuela), the Russian economy has take a serious hit. Then we look at the man in charge over there (VP) and all the pies he has or is trying to dip his fingers into. The fact that China is friend/foe and a next door neighbor. Then there is the EU and North Korea. Now take all that and lay over the top the latest from Washington:
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-u-s-sanctions-tantamount-full-fledged-economic-war-n789071
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...inging-russia-relations-to-dangerous-low.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/03/politics/russia-us-trump-putin-sanctions/index.html
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrap...-market-yawns-and-germans-panic/#106ccf4859dc

    Are we pushing Russia into an untenable position economically? What might a panicking Russia do?
     
  2. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #2
    I voted for pushing them further (until they back off Ukraine, agree to sensible talks about Crimea, stop encouraging North Korea, and stop toying with the Baltic countries). However, the idea of LizKat as Russian PM does have a certain appeal....
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #3
    push a country too far and they are bound to retaliate in ways we might not be able to recover from............
     
  4. Zenithal macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    #4
    No. This farce is hardly a tickle when you account the last 200 years of Russian history, let alone their entire history.
     
  5. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #5
    All they have to do to stop the sanctions is to stop interfering in other countries' affairs (and indeed, grabbing land from them). These sanctions simply reflect that the US should not do business with people who are acting like enemies to both the US and peace in general. Let Russia choke on the sanctions until they take a step back from bullying and invading their neighbours.
     
  6. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #6
    er, if interference in other nations mean sanctions, why has the U.S not been sanctioned?o_O
     
  7. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    #7
    One of the potential consequences of pushing Russia too far is the EU feeling we are being too harsh and they begin to support/back Russia. Russia supplies their energy, in Germany there is a growing swell of people/politicians who think they should start to shift ties more to Russia than the US for a variety of reasons.
     
  8. vrDrew macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Location:
    Midlife, Midwest
    #8
    If Russia wants sanctions released, it needs to immediately cease its illegal war in Eastern Ukraine.

    Russia also needs to agree to a diplomatic discussion where it can make an offer of economic and political restitution for its Annexation of Crimea. and its involvement in the shooting down of a Malaysian Air Airbus. And for its campaign of cyber-crime and interference in the US Presidential Election.

    My offer to Vladimir Putin is this: $200 billion as the downpayment on the restitution Russia needs to pay for its behavior over the last few years. And Mr Putin, we think you should pay this sum personally, out of the money you have stolen from the Russian people, and hidden around the world.

    There. That would be a good start.
     
  9. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
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    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #9
    I love Irony, we have an illegal war an Syria right now.
     
  10. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #10
    Any country can put sanctions on the US. I guess most countries consider Russia a much bigger threat than the US, and hence the sanctions on Russia. ;)
    --- Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017 ---
    True. Not sure what else you would have us do though now that we've stirred up the hornet's nest. Also, when last I checked, we're not trying to retain land we occupy in Syria. Not so with Russia and Crimea. Not so with Russia and Georgia.
     
  11. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    #11
    LOL why thank you sir... I think... :) :confused:

    Would have to think about it. Vladimir :eek: might not approve.

    I do like cold weather but... pretty sure I'd prefer the politics of Estonia.
     
  12. steve knight, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017

    steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    #12
    just heard 8 million (I think that is right) set aside to fight Russian propaganda and hacking is getting stopped. I guess trumps banker is putting pressure on him since he was forced to sign the sanctions.
     
  13. Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #13
    Think the Russian aspect was in the right place in Congress, the other aspect (changes in method and control) not so much. Then add this to what the Russian response(s) may be ... wonder if we in our haste to sanction are creating new issues.

    I wonder is if Trump will look for a way to judicially challenge certain aspects of the bill just signed. Some aspects of it fly in the face established (judicially reviewed) processes.
    Then the effect if challenged and found unconstitutional to the sanctions themselves.

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/was...t-trump-s-statement-1501687924-htmlstory.html

    --- Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017 ---
    With you in that position I would expect interesting times for all :D now the Chinese response to that ... ;)
    --- Post Merged, Aug 3, 2017 ---
    True but their economy is now dependent on primarily one resource and they do not control it.
     
  14. Dagless macrumors Core

    Dagless

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Location:
    Fighting to stay in the EU
    #14
    Russia are heading backwards fast. It’d be good if we could help the people over there.
     
  15. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Location:
    Catskill Mountains
    #15
    Heck I could pitch some ideas to China and find a taker near top of their economic planner's bunch, I bet. Why not? They are rational, they think long term, a good lot their people are incredibly nimble mercantilists who think nothing of dropping into another country and making themselves useful, for their own entrepreneurial gain, without getting all crazed over anyone's or their own culture. The business at hand is sufficient. That usually goes for customers too. You have what I want? I have what you need? Perfect.

    Me I don't want much.... I just want that New Silk Road to run around the world and raise all boats alongside the canals that together with roads can fetch harvest and manufactured goods and their inputs to international ports... and I want everybody to pitch in on it and be excited about the prospects and spinoffs for everybody. But we'd all have to discover a couple fountains of youth before could expect to see that happen. I do realize that.

    I expect someday Russia will intentionally migrate away again from their reversion to a strongman "solution" of their economic issues. It could take awhile and get messier, which is a great sadness for people whose parents or grandparents saw 1917. They have meanwhile seen some set of twists and turns to end up at Putin, now trying to stare down or sneak down or threaten down the sanctions that keep him separated from the billions he's managed to wrest from all those other takers who themselves had taken the Russian population to the cleaners.

    We in the USA could be them, the Russian people. We are not so stoic about our plight though, apparently. We tried to send a message to the establishment in 2016. I don't know if we can fare any better trying again to right things for ordinary people in the near future. Surely we can do better than to have to choose again as we did in 2016. On the other hand, we did still have a real choice, whether or not Russia managed to influence the outcome.

    Meanwhile it's not impractical to continue to nudge heads of state towards the notion that it's preferable to share ideas for economic growth than to trade insults much less the business ends of each other's military hardware. After all we do have a lot of peaceful trade with a lot of countries whose particular ideologies are not the same.

    Yes but probably not by loosening up Putin's western assets so he and the western banks can resume laundering his ill gotten gains. All that would do in the very short run is ease up Putin's having to hit on his own central bank to pay his weapons manufactuers and cover defaulted-upon loans made to Venezuela for them to buy those Russian-made weapons. Right now Venezuela still buys Russian guns for cash (which Maduro supplies from his central bank, thanks to having nationalized some US refinery assets). But Putin will underwrite the cash outlay if Maduro runs short. He must keep those weapons makers happy. Oy, the cashflow problems of bad guys. They jack up the cost of real bread and butter.

    Probably the New Silk Road offers more to Russian people than Putin would even want them to have. On the other hand the economic opportunities must be tempting. The trick is to get Putin more interested in cooperating with China on a new silk road. Better for him and the rest of us too, than in messing with western democracies' heads --and so trying to expand his network of compromised politicians-- while simultaneously trying to reacquire territories that used to offer the old USSR assorted natural resources and markets Putin would rather hold closer to hand again.
     
  16. noekozz macrumors 6502a

    noekozz

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    Location:
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    #16
    ** waits for Zin or Darsithpro to post how great Russia is and how unjust we are to push sanctions against them. :p
     
  17. darksithpro, Aug 3, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017

    darksithpro macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    #17
    Well for one they have a crap-load of nukes. They also have good geology. They supply Europe with roughly 30% of their LNG needs. Russia was supposed to build a pipeline directly into Europe and increase it's energy export. With regards to Ukraine and Russia invasion, and annexation of Crimea, you'd have to go back in history to understand. In a nutshell the European Union was trying to pull Ukraine away from Russian influence with a EU association agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement But the Ukrainian prez Viktor Yanukovich decided to go against it and rely more on Russia, because they offered Ukraine a better deal. This REALLY pissed of the EU and the US. Then all of a sudden there's a civil uprising, and well, you know the rest. Also read about the Black Sea Fleet. It's of great strategic importance to Russia. This is pretty much why Russia annexed Crimea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet
     
  18. samcraig macrumors P6

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    #18
    Regardless - I don't think Trump should be undermining Congress in such a manner.
     
  19. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

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    Location:
    Flea Bottom, King's Landing
    #19
    I'm not either of them, but I'll give it a shot. Ehem...

    In 'Merica, we teach our kids that it's thanks to 'Merica entering the fray that Hitler got his ass handed to him. The truth is the Russians switching sides was the reasons the Allies won WWII. But 'Merica joining forced Hitler into a 2 front war. Well, 'Merica, Japan and Russia all fought a 2 front war as well. Think about it. When Russia was on Hitler's side, the Axis were kicking ass. When Russia switched sides, the Axis began losing. Which ever sides Russia teamed with became the winning side.

    Push Russian and they'll go all John Rambo on Europe.
    [​IMG]
    Trump ain't gonna do nut'n 'bout it.:rolleyes:

    How was that? No enough Rah-Rah Russia?
     
  20. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #20
    Seriously? And I suppose you think the Crimean referendum on being annexed by Russia was fair. This all boils down to Russia not wanting to pay the Ukraine for the lease of the bases in Crimea, so they invaded.

    The Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for Russia and the US guaranteeing its territorial sovereignty. Russia reneged. Think how dangerous that is now given the current attempts to get North Korea to stop developing its nuclear programme.
     
  21. darksithpro macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    #21

    Let's not pretend here. You know as well as I do the new Ukrainian Government would have never renewed the lease. Do you not think there was any foreign influence in that uprising? There are leaked phone calls of EU fiance minister talking with the coup plotters during that time.
     
  22. samcraig macrumors P6

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    #22
    Sorry - had to

     
  23. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    Jun 4, 2008
    #23
    Your in Europe (for now-lol) so I'm sure this isn't going to sound new. I'm pretty sure during negotiations between the US and Russia on German reunification promises were made that NATO wouldn't expand to Eastern Europe and Russia's doorstep. Clearly that didn't happen, some would argue the US reneged on that promise. I'm not saying what Russia did was right, but there is another side to it.
     
  24. Rhonindk thread starter macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

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    Oct 3, 2014
    Location:
    Bloom County: Meadow Party
    #24
    See that. But with their only real economic money pipeline being oil ... between us and OPEC.
    Don't see Russia opening up for additional foreign investing. More likely scaling back.
     
  25. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    #25
    the result of this poll is FAKE NEWS since there isn't a "go to hell midget" option :D
     

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