Let's say God in heaven has put forth his rule book to humans. Follow these rules or else be damned for eternity! Faithful Joe, after sinning as a youth, sees the light and becomes reborn, goes to church, follows all the rules. So with the threat of punishment is Faithful Joe a moral person? Or does this make him simply a good rule follower? The next question- what would God want? Does he want truly moral people who act in a particular way because it is the right thing to do, or because they know Big Brother is always watching and they are going to be caught if they are bad? Do you see the dilemma? If you are acting solely based on the threat of punishment, does this make you moral? Ok, so how can God end up with truly moral people? Maybe he needs to allow them to develop, make choices, and eventually arrive at the desirable place. I'm willing to bet anyone here that the concept of punishment is a primitive man made idea unworthy of a God. Thoughts?