Article 50 'triggered' - a great day for the future of the UK

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by border terrier, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. border terrier macrumors regular

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    #1
    Cue all the naysayers and doom-munger remoaners predicting armageddon (again).
     
  2. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    totally cool
  3. sim667 macrumors 65816

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  4. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #4
    You mean "great" for England.

    Anyhow the transitional deal will rumble on for a decade so it's a bit of an anti-climax.
     
  5. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #5
    Now that would be a total desaster for the UK.

    If anything is needed it is clearity a fast as possible, even just two years would be bad as investment(*) will be made elsewhere.

    * real investments into the real economy, the kind that actually produces jobs, takes years to become realtity and atleast a decade to pay off.
     
  6. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #6
    And so would a sharp exit...

    No way the U.K. Or eu is competent enough to negotiate within two years.
     
  7. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #7
    There was nothing in the letter by May that put the fate of EU nationals living in the UK and UK nationals living in the rest of the EU as a top priority. There are many people from the EU that are living in the UK that I care profoundly about. The thought the might have to leave against their will saddens me deeply. Hopefully, sanity will prevail and the EU and UK will work something out that won't crush people's lives just for the sake of a sound bite or a headline in the tabloid press. I say 'hopefully' but so far there is little reason for hope.

    So, as A US citizen living in Scotland, I'm faced with Trump, Brexit, and IndyRef2 (another Scottish independence referendum). It's a trifecta of unnecessary instability.
     
  8. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #8

    [​IMG]

    Silence, you!
     
  9. martint235 macrumors regular

    martint235

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    #9
    The deal can rumble on for as long as it takes so long as the clarity is provided as soon as we leave in two years eg in d+1 year we will be here, in d+2 years we will be here. It's not timescales that bother business so much as confusion about them. It takes time for large business to spin up investment and if they know the UK will be in a particular state by 2022 for example they can start planning now.

    It will probably be a great day for the UK but in spite of Brexit not because of it. I think it's a foolish idea however, we're here now and we will do what the UK always does: make the best of it, knuckle down and prove that the people of this country are adaptable and industrious.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 29, 2017 ---
    You have my sympathy for that lot. It's bad enough facing just Brexit. However I do think it would be wrong of the UK to give up the bargaining chip of EU nationals in the UK unilaterally.
     
  10. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #10
    I agree absolutely, and I understand the primary goal of the UK government will be to protect UK citizens, including ex-pats (which is ironic since some ex-pats were excluded from eligibility to vote in the referendum, but that's another topic). However, it would have been nice for May to declare a 'no first-strike' policy - namely, a commitment that existing EU citizens in the UK with residence and working rights will not be messed about unless the EU messes about with current UK ex-pats first. Obviously things like voting rights must change, but major things like breaking up families, friendships, and work networks by deporting people should be avoided.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 29, 2017 ---
    if things keep going this way, it would be a welcomed relief. :(
     
  11. LizKat, Mar 29, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017

    LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #11
    Reading May's letter in the FT this morning I had the same sort of surreal feeling I had when it was clear that Trump won the US election. Lately it seems hard to shake the idea that one is reading news accounts instead of assorted works from the genre of political fiction.

    The triggering of Brexit happens to correspond here with the long awaited arrival of something resembling spring. At least the fog-over-snow effect has lifted for a sunny day. Two robins finally showed up in my yard, which is still half covered by glaciers where that 32" snowdump drifted up. They seemed a little confused by having to hop or fly over those snowdrifts to get a full tour of the yard, but they've hung around all day and I think they're now building a nest in my spruce. Good luck to them, it's supposed to snow yet again on Friday.

    Life goes on, doesn't it. I wish I were a bird sometimes, I'd be in the Caribbean right now, not a fan of heat but for once I may have had enough of snow. But, I imagine there are a lot of UK residents who hail from elsewhere in the EU (and vice versa) who'd just like to know that they can stay right where they are at this moment.

    I too was a little surprised there was no mention in the letter of that seemingly huge issue. I guess though that since it is a complicated one, making reference to it in the letter would have had to be more or less limited to saying "PS. Yes I know there is an elephant in the living room. "


    UPDATE: as @firestarter pointed out later in this thread, Ms. May did in fact mention the plight of UK and EU citizens who are now uncertain as to their future, and urged an early agreement of their rights. I regret my lack of enough coffee to have absorbed that info the first time I read the letter, and apologize to Ms May!
     
  12. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #12
    The thing is, I seem to have formed a soft spot for a German residing here in Scotland, and she's talking about going back to Germany. She's been here >5 years, has a PhD, and considers Scotland home. It's gut-wrenching that the UK government considers positive productive people like her – and I'm quoting here – as 'human capital' for negotiation.
     
  13. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #13
    Did you actually read the Article 50 letter?

    May set out her top priorities - the first of which was to engage Constructively, Respectfully and with Co-operation (a good underlying principle).

    Priority 2 (the first substantive one) went on to state:

    "We should always put our citizens first. There is obvious complexity in the discussions we are about to undertake, but we should remember that at the heart of our talks are the interests of all our citizens. There are, for example, many citizens of the remaining member states living in the United Kingdom, and UK citizens living elsewhere in the European Union, and we should aim to strike an early agreement about their rights."

    So your post is factually incorrect, and misrepresents the letter completely.

    Additionally, May had actually tried to strike a deal on EU national's rights prior to the serving of Article 50, but it was rejected by a number of other EU states!

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
    --- Post Merged, Mar 29, 2017 ---
    Another person who can't read.
     
  14. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #14
    I just went back and re-read the annotated letter in the FT; I should have had more coffee this morning?! I will update my previous post to indicate that Ms. May did indeed mention the elephant in the living room.
     
  15. Scepticalscribe, Mar 29, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2017

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #15
    No.

    Mrs May had been advised - or, perhaps persuaded - that toning down the unnecessarily arrogant, abrasive, and condescending style - the sheer gracelessness - in which the UK has conducted conversation (one can hardly describe it as dialogue) to date with the EU might prove to be counter-productive in the long run.

    The EU - while regretting this - are not going to allow the UK to cherry pick policies, or decide or determine what is discussed - or to frame, or set, the parameters for subsequent discussion, dialogue, debate and negotiation.

    What is astonishing to me - and I do have some idea of how Brussels works - is that EU negotiations are usually conducted and carried out - or predicated - on a sort of win-win basis.

    However, since Brexit, the combined dismissive arrogance and incompetence of the British Government - striking a tone of belittling contempt, tempered with lofty condescension, have served to harden positions on the continent.

    Even now, it is clear that firstly, the British Government cannot bring themselves to believe that Europe is serious in taking a firm - and united - stance on negotiations, and secondly, the breathtaking lack of respect with which it is increasingly clear parts of the English elite view their relationship with the EU, cannot but give rise to a negotiating environment where any understanding for the British - especially the English - position, because Brexit, above all, gave voice to Little England - will become a rare and valuable commodity.
     
  16. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #16
    Nostalgia is the word that comes to mind. Brexit basically appealed to restoring a (rose-colored) version of the past for the UK. That's great for a marketing pitch - but (as an Englishman) - the proof's in the pudding. The UK used to be the pre-eminent power (before the US) and I think a lot of the Brexit movement was not wanting to be lumped in with 40 or so countries directed via Brussels. The US also has this problem btw. Nostalgia is a potent motivation - but a poor guide to what needs to be done (imo). As an expatriate, I wish the UK the best of luck...
     
  17. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #17
    And the left is proven wrong again, first Trump, now Brexit. Next...
     
  18. MadeTheSwitch macrumors 6502a

    MadeTheSwitch

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    #18
    Must you boil everything down to a left/right us vs. them mentality? I'm sure their were people on both sides of the aisle who voted to remain, and who voted to exit.
     
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #19
    How does triggering article 50 prove anyone wrong?
     
  20. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #20
    Actually, I read all of the A50 letter, including the section you posted. That section does not say that the UK will not initiate actions against EU citizens. It does not say that the UK will guarantee the residency of EU citizens if the EU reciprocates. Suppose EU residents are used as a bargaining chip for a trade deal? What has been said explicitly by this government is that EU citizens are 'negotiating capital' (see link). The section in the A50 letter is vague twaddle with no commitments that reassures anybody. And BTW, the Guardian story you cite describes people – real people, not human 'capital' – who are concerned about what will happen to them. I wonder if you have ever considered what it is like to worry about whether you will be deported from your home, your work, your friends, and possibly your family. This is happening to EU residents in the UK and UK ex-pats in the EU alike. Damage is being done now.

    'Another person who can't read' indeed.
     
  21. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 601

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #21
    What does that even mean?
    You do realise that many of the people you would label as 'the left' voted for Brexit don't you?

    Brain engage fingers.
     
  22. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    Long term residents could always have naturalised and still can. They just didn't see value in it.
    If I moved to another country and considered it home I imagine I would naturalise when possible because I would want to be able to vote and have a say [UK is slightly different for me since I don't need to naturalise to vote].
     
  23. sim667 macrumors 65816

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  24. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #24
    The left said it would never happen, it's happened.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 30, 2017 ---
    Please refrain from personal insults.
     
  25. dogslobber macrumors 68020

    dogslobber

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    #25
    I can't believe this is happening. It's the worst possible thing that could happen and it would be so much better in the EU. Hold the vote again and this won't happen again. The whole of the UK economy is about to collapse.

    Think that covers it :)
    --- Post Merged, Mar 30, 2017 ---
    I very much doubt the UK could deport 2m+ illegal aliens. Sometimes numbers are just too overwhelming.
     

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