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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mcrain, Nov 22, 2010.
Interesting article (with historical research) on tax cuts for the wealthy.
For the gist:
This should never have been a debate in the first place. We know that trickle down doesn't work.
I'm so effin tired of these cry baby rich people whining "wahhhh, I dont want to pay my share in taxes, wahhhh, I can't afford another vacation home, wahhhh!"
Want more money? Get a second or third job you know, like poor people instead of living off their sweat.
Freedom ain't free, liberty ain't free, and capitalism ain't free. Get over it.
Poor guy: "Hey bob, what did you do at work today?"
Rich Guy: "Oh just made a few decisions that could cost my company millions and put thousands of jobs on the line."
Poor guy: "Oh, sounds just about as stressful as my job working the fryalator in the back of Mcdonalds."
Rich guy: hey what did u do at work today?
Poor guy: tried to teach a classroom of forty kids how to read and write so they can be doctors and engineers and run our country in a few decades.
Rich guy: sounds just as stressful as me deciding how to spend the millions my daddy passed on to me. he earned it all stressing out as a movie star.
Lee is right. Trickle down doesn't work. It is exactly the same reason why "stimulating" the economy doesn't work.
America needs capital (and credit), which usually flows to where there is least resistance in the world. A few decades ago, people in Zimbabwe hated the rich white farmers, so they made things more "fair". Maybe America will follow the same path.
Those are two entirely different things, but I want to hear your thoughts elaborated so I'm not jumping to conclusions.
Since when do these pay averages = poor?
High School Teacher $43,293
Elementary School Teacher $40,469
Middle School Teacher $42,589
Special Education Teacher, Preschool, Kindergarten, or Elementary School $41,133
Secondary School Teacher $42,683
Special Education Teacher, Secondary School $44,238
Special Education Teacher, Middle School $42,513
Woe is me, I can't manage my finances.
I take it you understand how an average works, right?
No actually they are not at all the same thing. Direct economic stimulus is attempting to bolster one of the factors of production; specifically capital. Its a direct transfer to a key input for economic product. Trickle down is relying on capital intermediates (the wealthy in this case) to invest the capital. In addition, trickle down requires that those intermediates invest in vehicles that will actually create output. Direct capital stimulation, or in times of growth investment in other factors of production like infrastructure and human productivity, is far more effective because it is targeted.
This is not about the "poor", it's about the rich getting tax cuts. Please pay attention.
Unless you are going to suggest that there are outliers skewing the results in both directions and that we have a large amount of teachers living below the poverty line and also ultra richly the argument you are about to make is moot.
How much does it cost for the B.A. you need for one of those jobs? How long does it take to pay off the student loan? How much does a teacher make in the first column of the salary schedule? How long does it take to get to the last column (MA + 60, or some such)?
Tell me, what are teacher's starting salaries where you're from?
I think you might have missed the point, you stated for the rich to go get another job like the poor, when the job responsibilities are typically not even close to being compatible. The biggest thing the poor person worries about is whether he washed his hands before he wraps your burger up.
Depends on your situation, grants and low interest loans will cover most tuition if you are smart about it + the loans are extinguished after 10 years in the public teaching sector.
I don't think trickle down is worth talking about because it's taking focus off much more important matters. I think the economy would be much improved if we didn't have income taxes; but that is not trickle down theory. But if we had no income taxes without a commensurate decrease in government spending, it would all be a wash. And you already know my thoughts on the stimulus.
It's funny. I too look at the greater and greater disparity between the rich and poor and get mad too. I mentioned an article a few weeks ago about how QE2 will lead to a possible doubling of food and energy prices for the poorest 20% of Americans, who already spend more than 50% of their income on food and energy (do that math). But not a peep from anyone here about QE2 or Ben Bernanke.
I think there is a false perception that a free market causes a disparity between the rich and poor. I of course would argue the opposite. The extreme cases of rich and poor always occur in countries like Russia and Zimbabwe with a strong government hand in all business matters. And I think America's increasing predilection towards market intervention, over the course of decades, has exacerbated the situation here. For example, take a look at all the financial companies we bailed out and their market share. They are even more entrenched now than before.
Wow, they really did a number on you in econ class. You must have gotten an A. So everything we earn actually belongs to the government and if people get a tax cut that is considered government spending?
Well, government spending isn't more effective because it is someone who has no personal stake in their usually remote decision making. A person investing their own money, on the other hand, would be very interested in not losing his or her money. That person will study every possible scenario much closer than someone waiting to clock out at 5 pm.
Also, the politicians with the most sway will get the most money "targeted" to their districts. Do you think Senate seniority is a good way to target funds?
Where is the trickle down??
Didn't the GOP and Tea Party run on a platform of how poorly Obama has done on turning things around?
Economic Growth revised upward.
I was only showing how lower income families deal with a lack of funds. No reason why the wealthy can't do the same weather they are running a deep fryer or signing checks.
The wealthy should not be living beyond their wages. It's as simple as that.
I'm sorry, but those pay rates are pathetic. No wonder we can't get enough good teachers.
All K-12 Teachers
Median Salary by Years ExperienceYears Experience
Less than 1 year $34,537
1-4 years $37,323
5-9 years $42,851
10-19 years $49,598
20 years or more $57,676
Kind of funny, trickle down "works" in the sense that there is some benefit to freeing up large sums of money to an individual, but it's quite inefficient.
The drains on that freed up capital (like putting it into offshore savings, increasing personal investments of commodities like gold, and purchasing imported items) do very little to spur the domestic economy.
The capital (and credit) America has was basically used up in bailouts, but I don't think America is ready to start another war. The resources of foreign lands may look attractive, but it's really a money pit in the end.
The problem was that they forced the rich farmers to leave the country and took all their land (rather than just a portion). Additionally the black farmers didn't have the expertise to run the farms they'd taken effectively.
None of these things have many parallels in the US economy.