As religious conservatives lose their influence, what will happen next?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Jul 4, 2015.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    I've been wanting to ask this question for a while now. I thought about posting it in an existing topic, but it could fit into several, so I made it a separate thread.

    Religious conservatives have become pretty unglued with the gay marriage ruling. While even those of us who don't agree with it shrug and say, "Oh well," some like Rick Santorum and Ted Cruz have vowed to fight on...sometimes with some pretty crazy ideas.

    But in a country where older conservatives are dying off and millennials are much less likely to mix religion with politics, I think they know their time is coming to a close -- and I'm getting a strong vibe that they are feeling they are being boxed into a very tight corner.

    What sometimes happens, especially with fanatical people, is that when they feel boxed in, they lash out. I'm wondering if, as they feel their political influence wane, they'll turn to other, perhaps more violent methods.

    We've seen abortion clinics burned down and abortion doctors murdered. Will we see a gay wedding gunned down?

    Or will we see a less violent yet no less extreme option, like a new multi-state, Civil War style secessionist movement?

    Or something else? Your thoughts?
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #2
    Do you not support gay marriage or is this a quote from another source?

    Not having a go. Just curious.
     
  3. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    I'm not sure of the framing of the question you're asking...if I get the macro gist of it, my guess would be that kind of conservatism dying out while complaining loudly in the short to mid term. That said, with the global economy such as it is, it would be liberalism on the chopping block before too long...again, perhaps I didn't understand the question...
     
  4. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #4
    Not sure what gave you that idea. Nothing in the OP implied to me that he's against gay marriage.
     
  5. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #5
    He's not talking about fiscal/economical issues. The subject is religious/social conservatism.
     
  6. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #6
    Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some isolated violence here and there, but I can't imagine it becoming a massively divisive political issue on par with slavery. For one thing, gay marriage doesn't make up a huge part of our economy.

    At worst, we'll see a governor or two or two threaten secession, but it'll only serve as a publicity stunt. The red states get a little too much leverage and support from our apparently evil and always overbearing federal government for them to do anything but thumb their noses at them in an empty gesture. They won't even win any popular support, since the vast majority of people really don't give a damn one way or the other regarding gay marriage.

    We'll see much ado about nothing, then in 20-30 years, it'll be a part of our everyday lives, and no one will think about it anymore. That's the way these things usually go.
     
  7. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    I'm very much supportive of gay marriage.

    It just seems that the religious right feels like it's under attack now more than ever. They're not just worried about people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" anymore. Now they look around and see not only abortion still legal, but Bruce Jenner becoming Caitlyn Jenner, men being able to marry men and women marrying women all across the country...and to their horror, people are accepting it. To the religious right, it's bad enough that the courts allow these "violations" of God's law, but it's even worse that no one but them seems to think that this is a terrible thing.

    Look at the woman in this post. She's totally unhinged. She's apoplectic and frantic. I just wonder how religious conservatives will react as the country continues to become more accepting of things which, to us, are basic civil rights but to them are the equivalent of persecuting Christian beliefs. Failing to secure "God's law" in a court of law, will they continue to sit there and take it, or will they lash back somehow, in ways outside the legislative and judicial process?
     
  8. mgguy macrumors 6502

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    #8
    Perhaps we should also worry about religious liberals acting out. I saw somewhere a statistic showing blacks, who overwhelmingly swing Democratic, are strongly represented among those who were opposed to SSM.
     
  9. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #9
    Really? Now I don't know what to think!
     
  10. LizKat macrumors 68040

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    #10
    There’s so much sort of free-floating anger out and about now that it’s hard to say whether disputes over same-sex marriage could be a specific trigger for violence. I'd be less concerned if this weren't also becoming a nation of people stoned on something or other out of the BigPharma inventory. Free floating anger, a weapon and chemical disinhibition or just poor impulse control: what a terrible combination.

    I don’t get the sense that people in the western Catskills are very wound up about this SCOTUS decision. Those who are, are vociferous but they’re a minority.

    We’re more concerned right now with the prospect of two gas pipelines coming through here. So, plenty of room for same-sex marriage to squeak through that attention gap these days. Further, with respect to the economics of businesses serving aspects of same sex weddings, this is such an economically deprived area that I’d bet my barn there will not be refusals to serve up the flowers, food, etc. for anyone’s wedding. One could marry a goldfish in the western Catskills and get nice flowers and good food at the reception.

    Worst case, objectors will resort to having an employee who’s not averse to the task fulfill the orders. This has always been the way rational people deal with serving customers whose ways don’t mesh with the vendor’s ways, past the issue of supply and demand for the goods in question.

    We can be hard-headed around here but most of us are not completely irrational. That’s not a comforting statistic if you run into an exception, of course. I think you’re in more trouble here if the topic is New York’s SAFE act on gun and ammo regulations, or mandated veggies on school lunch menus. Or Common Core educational issues. People here mostly get it that it’s a choice, not a mandate, for someone to marry someone of the same sex. But don’t tell people their kid has to eat chopped kale for lunch just because he eats toaster tarts for breakfast and freedom fries for supper.

    What a country. But SCOTUS on same sex marriage is an overdue step forward.
     
  11. mgguy macrumors 6502

    mgguy

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    #11
  12. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #12
    OK but what's the percentage today? Approval of gay marriage has increased massively since 2008 in the US.
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    The following:

     
  14. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #14
    My prediction?

    Open warfare liberal vs. conservative.

    :rolleyes:
     
  15. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #15
    Those of us Americans. I thought my own position was clear from the context (as well as other posts) but perhaps not.
     
  16. dec. Suspended

    dec.

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    #16
    It might take a bit longer than in progressive countries like Canada, Denmark or The Netherlands but I think that eventually even the more fundamentalist of the followers of the "Christian" cult will realize that they don't really have much of a choice but to adapt to the changes. Of course you'll find conservatives up here in Canada who speak out against same-sex marriage, but there's really nothing they can do about it - keyboard warriors on Rob Ford Facebook fan pages and Breitbart (I don't even know if we have a Canadian equivalent to that sewer of humanity. ) blabbering about crusades after having a few Labatt Blue's is about as "good" as it gets. "Christians" freaked out over it in Spain and assembled for demonstrations against same-sex marriage, but that seems to have died off too.

    So yeah, despite all the amusing drama that our American friends of goat-herders mythologies are displaying right now, I think that it's only a matter of time before they realize that there's not a thing they can do about it (having leaders that chicken out from self-immolation does not strengthen their point... Ha!).
     
  17. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    BTW, I can't see black and Hispanic liberals getting upset the way conservatives do. Blacks and Hispanics can empathize with the idea of being oppressed.
     
  18. dec., Jul 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015

    dec. Suspended

    dec.

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    #18
    Definitely not to the same extent but among the black liberals there seem to be plenty who are under the influence of "religion" to the point where it does have a negative/anti-social effect, they definitely are not known as the most tolerant crowd. And don't freak out, I'm aware that there are plenty of "religious" white liberals out there as well and some act identical to the blacks that I've mentioned - someone posted some statistic the other day which pretty much confirmed that blacks are less open towards same-sex marriage in general.
     
  19. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    #19
    Who passed Proposition 8?
     
  20. Tubamajuba macrumors 68000

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    #20
    I love how people we don't agree with are talked about as if they're crazy. As if a small portion of people that share certain beliefs contrary to our own should have their actions taken to represent everyone who happens to share some of those beliefs.

    Never change, internet!
     
  21. dec., Jul 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015

    dec. Suspended

    dec.

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    #21
    Trust me, it's also not the greatest thing to have followers of some mythologies attempt to treat you as a lesser human being or deny rights just because of their personal indoctrinated unicorn. So really, the whole "we're being called crazy and martyrs"-BS is something that is entirely irrelevant.

    (I don't care if someone's pathetic misanthropic ideology (like "Islam" or "Christianity" for example [imho]) classifies me as a so called "sinner", the concept is too hilarious to take it serious, but it does become an issue when those people assume that they seriously can apply that concept to society in general).

    Edit: If you don't judge non-"believers" and aren't one of the disgusting, delusional types that attempt to actively deny same-sex couples their rights because of their own personal "god", it's all good :) . I'm sure that "Religion" can be fun for some that think they a requirement for it or lack something without it. So enjoy & no offence intended. Cheers!!!
     
  22. Prof. macrumors 601

    Prof.

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    #22
    My generation is very progressive, and dare I say anti-religion. Many of my friends who were raised into very very christian conservative families have become self-aware(?) and now identify as socially liberal/progressive and as none/agnostic/atheist. They support gay marriage, universal healthcare, free university, etc. I think the next 10 to 30 years will be very interesting.

    I think the rise of Bernie Sanders, a self-proclaimed democratic socialist speaks volumes. Class consciousness is finally happening. I would not be surprised if the USA takes a more socialistic turn like many european countries.
     
  23. mgguy macrumors 6502

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    #23
    Oh noes!
     
  24. Tubamajuba macrumors 68000

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    #24
    I am of the belief that the government shouldn't be in the business of defining marriage in the first place. I'm Christian, but I don't think it is the government's job to uphold my beliefs. Although you look down upon my beliefs, I do think it's worth pointing out that Jesus himself indirectly advocated for the separation of church and state (you know, the whole "give to Caesar what belongs to him" speech). The Bible never depicted any earthly nation ruled and governed by followers of Jesus (nor was such a nation ever promised), so I don't know where people got the expectation that the USA was to be that sort of country. Most of the USA's founding fathers believed in God, but they intentionally created a nation that didn't use its power to promote any one religious belief, even the one they personally practiced. That, I believe, is one of the reasons why the US is still going strong today. Now, I see that you live in Toronto, but Canada has the same general principles regarding separation of church and state.

    I don't believe that being gay makes you any less of a human than someone who is straight. Again, nowhere in the Bible does it suggest that you should treat anybody differently due to their sexuality. Jesus never shied away from spending time with and showing love to people that the high and mighty "holier than thou" people shunned in his day. Anybody who treats you poorly and claims to be Christian should spend a bit more time with their Bible.

    I apologize for anyone who has ever treated you poorly in the name of their religion. There is simply no place for that. Ever.

    On a lighter note- your avatar looks amazing. 10/10, great use of the circular avatar!
     
  25. Prof. macrumors 601

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