Astronomers:Any theories on this weird Helioviewer.org clip?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Dubdrifter, Sep 6, 2015.

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  1. Dubdrifter, Sep 6, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015

    Dubdrifter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #1
    Tweeted this link to Stephen Hawking, inviting comment ....



    Will keep you posted if he responds! (What do you mean "Don't hold your breath"!)

    In the meantime anyone want a stab at what might be going on here ..... is the conclusion drawn totally off the radar .... or does it show something under "intelligent control" happening here?

    No Ads on this clip.
     
  2. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #2
    Sorry, I'm not watching an eight-minute clip with no information as to what and when I should be looking.
     
  3. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

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    #3
    The information is in the clip. Are you streaming Premium rate/kbit or something? Go to MacDonalds and jump on their Wi-Fi. If you can't be bothered to view 8 mins to find out ..... maybe your attention span is more suited to Twitter than MacRumors.

    Anybody got a serious response to the clip?
     
  4. Beachguy macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    I'm sorry, but I saw nothing interesting in it. I watched, but just didn't see anything that piqued my curiosity.
     
  5. Gav2k macrumors G3

    Gav2k

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    #5
    There was a small gas discharge that obscured the bright speck. Wow
     
  6. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #6
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say there was a 'gas discharge' corridor roughly 2 Earth diameters wide and several thousand miles long created in less than 1 second which coincided with the extinction of an illuminated object, which existed for exactly 10 minutes duration to the second before dissolving almost completely within 1 second instantly revealing same illuminated object? These gas discharges don't half dissolve almost instantaneously these days!

    Wow indeed!

    Not being an Astronomer, but being aware of the incredible, unusual forces generated in and around the Sun ..... is this a natural event? .... or would a gas discharge show a progressively slower evolution ..... maybe if someone can slo-mo that instant 1 second section, we might see that progression and confirm the direction of the discharge .... which isn't clear.

    Nothing to pique your curiosity, Beachguy? ..... you do have an exciting life ..... tell me about it .... oh wait ..... surfs up ..... back to the beach!
     
  7. Beachguy macrumors 6502a

    Beachguy

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    #7
    Living by the beach makes things better. That way I don't spend all my time looking at specious videos and imagining that nothing happening means something is happening.

    And here, we don't surf. We swim. Play with dolphins. Snorkel. Dive. Whatever we want. Any time we wish...
     
  8. Beachguy macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Might have been a solar cow adding to the atmosphere.
     
  9. monokakata macrumors 68000

    monokakata

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    #9
    This reminds me of what happened when the USGS put its seismic data online, open access -- it spawned a large community of untrained, uncritical people who really had no notion of what to do with raw seismic data except to get all upset about the horrible things they believed were about to happen. OMG! Lots of seismic stations registering tremors all at once! It's the End Times! It's a supervolcano ready to explode! It's the Reptilians!
     
  10. T'hain Esh Kelch macrumors 601

    T'hain Esh Kelch

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    #10
    Guy looks at recording of the sun, guy sees solar flare and does not know what it is or that it produces light, or how a camera sensor works.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. aaronvan Suspended

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  12. monokakata macrumors 68000

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  13. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #13
    Thought MacRumours was a forum where you could engage in a serious discussion on most issues without it descending into a monkey's tea party.

    I was asking Astronomers, scientists qualified in this field to apply their analytical tools to a bit of NASA data and give us 'ignorant' enthusiasts an education in their expert field.

    So far, all we are getting is the gibbering of the usual disruptive element, none of who appear from their other postings on the Internet to be serious scientists ..... who are not analysing the data seriously and providing no serious answers to the questions posed.

    Meanwhile, back to the thread ..... technical explanations please ...... we all want to learn what's going on here .....

    Would be good if someone could slo-mo the original source data from Helioviewer.org ..... went on the site last night but could barely get any images at all ..... even archive.

    ..... Is there a genuine technical fault or has NASA spiked the site data? ..... seems to be happening a lot lately ..... just when the data gets really interesting .....

    Not sure who is really 'in control' at NASA ..... but every time data suggests 'intelligent life' might be out their, someone pixilates all over the image, or pulls the feed to public access, or flashes up a message saying there is a camera fault - when the camera seems to be working perfectly.

    Why is it NASA scientists only step up to the plate to discuss 'alien life' when it's at the 'microbial level'? ......

    Have the 'gods' in control of NASA, and the grant money, got some sort of 'inferiority complex'?!

    But I digress, back to the point of the thread .....
     
  14. monokakata macrumors 68000

    monokakata

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    #14
    Sorry, dude. I don't gibber.

    I have a PhD in a scientific field and years of experience dealing with people (college students, mostly) who just want everything to be more unusual than it really is. People who don't understand how knowledge is gained, how it's analyzed, and all that. People who think that after 30 minutes with a book from the used book bin at Goodwill all of sudden they are qualified to talk about scientific issues.

    I taught prehistory -- and maybe you know that there are approximately as many crazies going on and on about what "really happened" in prehistory as there are crazies talking about NASA's starfleets (out near Jupiter, in case you didn't know). Or a solar flare that takes out an alien starship*.

    I've dealt with more of that kind of person than I wish I'd had to. You just have no idea how many people are out there getting themselves excited by things they don't (but could, if they took the time, and took the acquisition of knowledge seriously) understand.

    I'm writing this about 50 kilometers from one of the world's largest and most sophisticated astronomical centers, and it has nothing in particular to do with NASA. I know some of those astronomers and some of the technicians. I can assure you that nobody's talking about solar flares caught by the helioviewer operation.

    Maybe you could offer us some sources for those NASA coverups. You have to know this kind of talk isn't new.

    *Let's consider the alien starship caper for a moment. So we have a civilization capable of traveling over interstellar distances. Presumably they know a thing or two about stars. So let's imagine the conversation on the Starship LooneyTunes: "Captain! There's a bright object out there! Looks like a main-sequence star. What shall we do?" "First Mate, let's get down really close to it, just to see what it really is. Heck, nothing can touch us. It's just a star. . . ." What your people are really saying is that alien starships are operated by ignorant idiots who don't know a thing about solar flares. Think about that for a moment.
     
  15. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #15
    You are the second person on here trying to 'school me' ..... who has called this a 'solar flare' ..... pardon my ignorance as a member of the general public who 'dares to ask a genuine question' from your scientific royal highnesses' ...... I can accept a high speed gas ejection ..... but 'solar flare'?

    You can bandy around what qualifications you like, I don't give a fig if you live next to Buzz Aldrin or God himself ..... just give me some 'science' on the thread ..... nothing else!

    Nothing to do with NASA?? ..... this data is from a NASA satellite feed right?? Jeez ..... am I really being schooled by somebody with a ..... pardon me while I bow down and tug my forelock .... a PhD.
     
  16. monokakata macrumors 68000

    monokakata

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    #16
    Wow, I guess you showed me. I wonder if you realize what else you've showed anybody reading this thread.

    I do love watching stereotypical behavior.
     
  17. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #17
    Probably showed if people make comments that aren't relevant to the thread and trot out the usual debunking auto paste nonsense these threads always seem to attract ..... they might end up looking slightly stupid.
    I'm used to it, .... it's par for the course .... when they have got bored ..... the real discussion can begin.

    I'm here to learn ..... contrary to assumptions ..... I like to dig into anything unusual and challenging and that is why I started this thread. Throw it out there .... tackle it head on. Like Carl Sagan used to do .....

    If you can add something relevant to the clip discussion, that shows you have studied it seriously ..... I'm all ears ...... the poster did take it from a NASA satellite so the footage hasn't been compromised or doctored in any way.

    If this is a high speed gas emission ...... is it 'natural' these things are created this fast?

    Surely the fact the emission pathway 'dissolves' instantly raises suspicions this isn't a 'natural' event?

    If it was 'naturally' formed wouldn't it dissipate slowly rather than 'instantly' ..... this doesn't add up to me ..... to a professional astronomer maybe? ..... magnetic flux forces?
     
  18. monokakata macrumors 68000

    monokakata

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    #18
    OK. Thirty-plus years teaching intro (which was my favorite course) don't disappear quickly.

    I'm going to assume that you're really looking for answers, rather than looking for like-minded people who don't necessarily know anything more than you do. I had hundreds of students like you, and so I'm going to do what I did for them when they came to me with their "I heard about this, couldn't it be true . . ." questions. In the pre-internet days I sent them to the library; nowdays there are plenty of online resources.

    MacRumors isn't the place, you know. I think you must know that.

    Here are some links.

    First, some observatories (the ones I mentioned that I'm close to, although the Maui one's on another island). All of these have "contact us" links and some have outreach and educational programs, which means that they have people on staff who deal with the public and -- if you're lucky -- are available to answer questions. Many of the Mauna Kea observatories are more interested in outreach than they used to be, even a few months ago. If you google "Thirty Meter Telescope" you'll see why. So dig around on their sites and I'm sure you'll find a place to get your question answered.

    Keck (one of the greatest observatories in the world).

    http://www.keckobservatory.org/

    Subaru (nothing to do with the car)

    http://subarutelescope.org/

    and this person appears to be involved in taking outside queries:

    http://subarutelescope.org/staff/kakazu/Home.html

    Canada-France-Hawaii (they also have the best webcams, check out their "cloud cam")

    http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/

    and their Outreach page:

    http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/en/outreach/contact.php

    Gemini North (Gemini South is in Chile)

    http://www.gemini.edu/

    Daniel K Inouye Solar Telescope (Maui)

    http://dkist.nso.edu/

    Mees Solar Observatory (Maui)

    http://kopiko.ifa.hawaii.edu/


    Now we can turn to some universities. Might as well work with the top ones.

    University of California, Berkeley. You're going to get lucky here:

    http://astro.berkeley.edu/astronomy-fans/ask-an-astronomer

    Harvard

    http://astronomy.fas.harvard.edu/resources

    Cambridge (England)

    http://www.ast.cam.ac.uk/contact

    Princeton

    http://helio.pppl.gov/

    University of Hawai'i

    http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/

    Miscellaneous

    A guy I know works at Keck, and here's his blog. He's a good guy and may well respond directly to you:

    http://darkerview.com/wordpress/

    Always fun:

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy.html

    An astronomy center

    http://www.imiloahawaii.org/


    This should get you started.

    You don't say where you live. If you live anywhere near a college or university, ask there. There's no reason not to show up at a department and ask if there's perhaps anybody around who could answer a question. I'm completely serious about that. Sure, you might get a "no," but especially if it's a university with graduate students, you'll probably be put in touch with somebody who will talk to you. I detect a hint of conspiracy theory in your postings -- so grad students will be your best bet. This is because any grad student who successfully overturns the status quo will have his or her career made. If you really think that NASA and others are hiding something, then grad students will know it.

    Another possibility would be natural history or science museums. Some of them have astronomers on staff.

    The thing is, OP, if you just stick to like-minded people and stay in the echo chamber you seem to be in, you'll never get anywhere. If you really want to ask an astronomer, then follow some of the links I've given you.

    If I were you, I'd try the Berkeley one first.
     
  19. Dubdrifter, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015

    Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

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    #19
    Thank You, Monokakata ..... the best and most comprehensive reply I have had on all the threads I have been on .... and then some!

    Will check out those links.

    Apologies for my earlier remarks .... but when people queue up to have a pop when you are seeking answers to a genuine query ..... they occasionally need a good 'slap' .... otherwise they get out of hand and steer things off course!

    Not sure I agree this isn't the ideal place to discuss these things ...... goes out Worldwide, gets seen by a lot of people .......many of whom are pretty bright ..... very quickly ..... isn't elitist .... gets passed around .... chewed over ..... and spat out if it isn't to taste.

    [I admit I do like a good conspiracy theory, it's where the most challenging and exciting ideas are being chewed over these days - but it has to have a lot of good evidence attached to it ..... that might lead it to developing into conspiracy fact ...... before I will hang my coat on that peg ..... but doesn't that apply to most 'intelligent' people who won't dismiss anything out of hand without first looking at the evidence?]

    ....... Which worries me a bit about your comment that a top scientist's career will "be made" if he discusses topics like NASA cover-ups, for example. Surely a scientist should be able to discuss any topic under the Sun ..... without prejudice? We expect our scientists to operate in a totally open and honest atmosphere, so if there are outside forces dangling grant money with conditions attached ..... surely this is not the climate scientists should be operating in?

    If the scientists/Graduates/Institutes you mentioned want to engage anonymously on this thread and throw in a few choice words on the issue ...... always welcome. Mum's the word.
     
  20. Dubdrifter, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015

    Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #20
    Reading this again .... I think you meant in a "good way" .....right? ..... rather than 'frozen out of the intellectual community'? .... which is what I thought you were inferring ..... Sorry, cross Atlantic confusion over the word 'made' being possible American gangster speak slang for 'having ones career ruined'! :D

    Here's a radical thought on the clip ...... If this 'gas emission' ...... which seems to be switching 'on and off like a light switch' and not decaying and dissipating naturally like one would expect..... is 'artificially generated' ..... [come on, run with this theory, I'm joining logical dots here, not leaping erratically into fantasy land!] ..... maybe the light going off and on in synchronicity close by, is generating it, or is influencing the event? ..... like a tractor beam in Star Trek creating a channel to the molten element of the Sun? - possibly to tap energy?

    Let's be more down to earth and generously say the lighted object mentioned nearby is a planetary body that 'glows' in the Sun's 'rays' .... and was 'switched off' during the 'gas emission' .... then 're-illuminated' instantly the emission ended ..... Why didn't the other glowing planetary body more in line with the 'emission' exhibit the same characteristics?

    Coincidentally, there have been many reports of UFO's around our planet that have been observed around our electricity power stations and been suspected of tapping into our supply ..... bloody cheek eh? wonder what Tariff they are on.:p
    Also, more to the point, volcanic eruptions attract a high number of UFO sightings with objects sometimes seen to descend into craters of molten magma .....

    Can power be tapped from the 'magnetic flux' in these situations? ..... in a piezo-electric sort of way?

    Bit like the new Samsung Phone battery charging system in 2093 I'm guessing .... now there's an idea ..... you can have that one for free ..... a molten magma battery charging system running on piezo electric principles ...... probably burn a hole in your pocket though .... in more ways than one! :confused:
    [Whaddya mean Apple have already patented similar and the new Macbook Pro just needs a shake like a bottle of fizzy pop to recharge these days? Shhheeeetttt . Your kidding me???]
     
  21. Sydde macrumors 68020

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    #21
    When I look at that, I see straight lines – things in nature never happen in straight lines. Occam's wakizashi says this is a camera/imaging artifact. That makes entirely more sense than high-tech tourists from Dagoba.
     
  22. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #22
    Well, @Dubdrifter, to be frank, your tone is what is off-putting, - as it appears to be a mixture of entitlement, and condescension, liberally sprinkled with rudeness, - rather than the content of the link you have posted.

    However, on the matter of the link, I am with @aaronvan; I will not watch a link of any description unless there is a heading, or a prompt, as to why I should do so. I cannot see any reason why you simply did not post what you think this is about in your original post.

    If you ask a question in a polite and respectful way, you will usually get a far better response than sneering at those - such as @Beachguy - or anyone else on the forum - who choose not to engage with you on your terms.

    In any case, @monokakata has given you an excellent, thoughtful, and comprehensive response.
     
  23. Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #23
    I appreciate your points, Scepticalscribe ..... my initial O.P. was very polite and respectful (conveniently forgotten as it undermines your point?) ..... the subsequent few responses were not ..... and needed to be addressed.
    Firmly.
    I didn't want what I hoped would be an 'intellectual' debate derailed by people who need to 'evolve' a more questioning attitude to a conundrum presented here.

    One expects better of MacRumours members ...... that's why we like this forum ..... the input is usually higher grade than elsewhere.

    I was very happy and appreciative of monokakata's last reply ..... and found it comprehensive and very helpful. And I acknowledged that.

    I also appreciate Sydde's comment quoting Occam's wakizashi saying it might be a camera/imaging artefact ..... sounds possible but looking again ..... with the time interval thing ..... pretty unlikely? Maybe I'm wrong there?

    [Keep those sort of comments coming .... we need more like it].

    "Artifacts" is a common explanation astronomers and NASA wheel out EVERY TIME we see something 'interesting' that their astronomers can't explain ..... camera fault, the feed went down, ..... etc.

    They even pixilate/block scrub images on Helioviewer.org and use duct tape to cover some photographs ..... can you believe an esteemed organisation like NASA would do that?!

    We are getting pretty tired of them presenting this 'get out of jail free' card - every time ..... and no other explanation besides ..... that stands up to decent scrutiny.

    Beginning to look like NASA ..... or their Controller Grant Paymasters (Is that the Republican controlled Congress? Those fundamentalist religious guys?..... who might lose Control if a far superior 'intelligent civilisation' was discovered to undermine all Earth's religions? ..... are we joining the dots here people? Sounds crazy doesn't it?)
    ...... but maybe they do have something to hide? Surely not.:D

    Seeing as the ultimate paymaster is the US Taxpayer ..... I think he/she deserves a better, more open and honest response and explanation not only from NASA - but astronomers too .... in all these situations. o_O And better cameras up there too ..... Jeez, they pay enough to NASA to get the VERY best imaging AND reliability. So why isn't it happening?

    Maybe they need a "Changing of the Guard" at the very top ..... to make that happen.

    Only then will ALL astronomers and scientists be able to speak freely on EVERY subject under the Sun .... because grant money should never be offered through rich Religiously controlled Organisations and Politicians with hidden 'provisos' attached.
     
  24. foleor, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015

    foleor macrumors newbie

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    #24
    @Dubdrifter , I am an astronomer who will take take some time to explain what I think is going on. I specialise in the Milky Way and nearby galaxies, not Solar astronomy, but I don't think that is important here. More relevant is that I worked for 8 years at the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, have therefore experience with the Hubble Space Telescope and also other space mission data, as well as a lot of ground based astronomical data. I now have a permanent position in Germany, so have nothing to do with NASA anymore (and actually, the Space Telescope Science Institute was set up to be independent of NASA, so that decisions regarding Hubble can be based on science interests, not on political or managerial interests).

    If you look at the left side of the window in the video in the panel marked "image", you can see that the data shown is from the UEVI detector of the SECCHI instrument in the STEREO-B mission. Just above that information you see the time stamp of the data in green. It turns out that the data available comes in steps of 10 minutes, not 1 second as suggested in the video. This is not uncommon; this has nothing to do with how fast the camera can take pictures, but with the data rate they can be sent back to Earth. You should think at rates not much faster than your analog telephone line modem if you are old enough to remember that. Design of this satellite was probably started about 20 years ago and may have technology on board that is even older. For instance, this camera runs on a PowerPC chip that older Mac lovers will well remember.

    So even though the top level time selection is shifted by only one second, in reality an image taken 10 minutes later is shown. The display just shows the image taken closest in time compared to the time selected in the top panel, so shifting from the image taken 5 minutes earlier to the image taken 5 minutes after the time selected by moving just 1 second in selection.

    And indeed, the Sun changes that much in 10 minutes in terms of solar flares, not in 1 second (that would probably be faster than light given the enormous distances covered). The bright specks are most probably what astronomers cal "cosmic ray events", charged particles that shoot with high speed through the detector during the exposure, discharging a lot of electrons that are read out and show up in the image as bright spots. The design document of this instrument states that they expect about a 1000 pixels affected by these events (out of 4 million pixels) in each exposure. Because we don't see that many this probably means that most of them have been removed by an automatic software detection algorithm, but this is hard to do perfectly especially on the smaller, fainter events, which means that some faint spots may still be in these images.

    So the bottom line is that images are compared that were taken 10 minutes apart and have some of these faint cosmic ray events at different places in the image (have a careful look and you see others in the other images). The Sun had a small outburst in one of these images (releasing many new charged particles in the process!), but this had absolutely nothing to do with the change in position of the spots.

    I hope this answers your question.

    And regarding astronomers not often answering these kind of questions: the internet is so full of these kind of questions, that it is almost impossible to start. We do in general our best to answer question directed directly at us at our outreach departments (and as discussed above, almost every astronomy department has someone responsible for outreach). We could spend easily our full day on answering questions on the internet, but we rather do research and discover new things. As mentioned earlier in this discussion, scientists have no interest in hiding things from the public as often suggested in conspiracy theories. Scientists are just curious people, looking for the "truth" (whatever that is), where it is in their interest to their career to discover new things, not to hide them. But more importantly, one of the most important commodities they have is integrity. If other scientists suspect you are not trustworthy, your career is in serious danger. Therefore, scientists may make occasional mistakes like anyone, but deliberately giving wrong information will be rare. As others will be building their science on your results, the chance that you get caught out for cheating is just too big and the truth will come out eventually, especially for high visibility results.
     
  25. Dubdrifter, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015

    Dubdrifter thread starter macrumors member

    Dubdrifter

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    #25
    Thanks, Foleor .... Firstly for taking the time out of your busy schedule to respond .... and for the comprehensive explanation .... I did wonder briefly if the clock increments were as written ......didn't realise the gear/technology up there was so old! ..... and naturally read 1 sec as 1 sec data intervals.

    Are they updating the cameras pointed at the Sun with a new satellite, new gear and better data streaming in the future? ..... so that 1 sec will represent 1 second in data time? ..... or is this not necessary for capturing most events around the Sun?

    Guess faster advanced warning of huge solar flare outbursts would give us extra time to shut down vulnerable electrical systems on Earth and prepare better for the major disruption it could cause ...... but you probably don't need a satellite camera to get that early warning as Earth based telescopes should be able to provide that data?

    Good to hear scientists at the cutting edge can operate and debate without too much interference from managerial and political interests.

    Needn't reply to the above if you are very busy ..... thanks again for clearing up my query so effectively.
     
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