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Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by stevesien, Jul 22, 2002.
check this out
What do you think?
I have to wonder why you would put up information that is over a year out of date. Notice the date on the page is from April of 2001.
My thoughts on that... who gives a F about something that happened to some buyers over a year ago. I sure as hell don't.
Bait and switch
I put up an old link because it shows a pattern of deception. Doesn't it?
And I happen to care. Cause I have given AAPL a lot of my hard earned money and I do NOT like to be cheated!
Have you ever read a modern lifetime warranty?
Ask a lawyer about some of them, the products are usually warranted for the life of the product - which is long hand for until it breaks or ceases to exist.
You got the free mac.com email for the life of the free product, it's dead - time to pay.
Re: Bait and switch
I fail to see how getting something for nothing, and then having the host increase pretty much ALL of what they were giving you for FREE and asking for a NOMINAL annual fee.
If your a business, or use it for work, you CAN write it off on your taxes. Right mcrain??? sheesh, some people just are NOT happy unless they have something to biatch about.
Re: bait and switch/not the first time?
Anyone who uses this type of account, or a .mac account for that matter, for their business deserves whatever they get. Thinking of taxes, I wonder what the IRS would have to say about it?
bait and Switch- ENver ending support.
Some of you guys are so blinded by what you WANT you fail to see what IS . Which basically is that AAPL has , just about become Microsoft, albeit on a smaller scale. Good Ol@Ex-Hippie Jobs and his Co. have just about completely ended THinking Different. They appear to be Thinking Like Ever Other Big Corporation.
How can you defend their behavior? Because they are a corporation that needs money?? WOW how different is that?
Give me a break. If Mr. Gates did the same thing you guys would be screaming for a Lynching!
you weren't talking to me, were you?
Actually, I couldn't care less what Microsoft does. It's all fun and games to poke fun at Redmond, but Windows works for some people, and that's fine by me. You just aren't going to catch it on my desktop.
I just have a few problems with all of the moaning over these stupid email, hosting issues.
1. I pay a premium for my hosting, and find it shocking that people would use a free service like these for their businesses. The article that you linked to quoted the guys traffic; no wonder Apple's reigning it in. I doubt very much that they offered the service with these guys in mind. If y'all have to pissed at anyone, be pissed at that guy, and those like them.
2. What's wrong with Apple acting like a corporation? If you are familiar with corporate law, they are compelled to make money for their shareholders. Apple has never been a not-for-profit, what do you want? In anycase, if they have to spend money, lets see them spend money on R&D.
3. Since when was it difficult to get an email address? I have more than I want, or use. ****, I can't give the damned things away.
I could go on and on, but I won't. Rather than appreciate the free service y'all have received to date, you want to tear down Apple for doing exactly what all companies have been doing with their internet strategies... make them at least pay for themselves.
As far as whether I'm blind... I'd say the opposite was true. I always knew Apple was a corporation, and didn't expect, or even desire, them to be any different. I think a lot of the anger that people have shown over this and other issues recently, is that they were deluded into thinking that Apple was their best friend, or could do no wrong, only to find out that wasn't the case (apparently, no one remembers the Gil Amelio days). I am a proponent of Apple because I like their products, and I want them to stick around. My eyes are open.
The iTools were never free...
Sometimes this overwhelming and absolute loyalty amazes me. I think Steve's right, if the boot was on the other foot (i.e. Microsoft's) there would be no end of pontification about how evil Mr Gates is. The fact is that Mr Jobs isn't that far behind and Apple's new strapline might more accurately read 'Think Similar'.
The common misconception is that the iTools were given away for free. They were never given away for free, they were bundled as part of the premium price users paid for buying a Macintosh - specifically an iMac(intosh).
Steve Wozniak (remember him?) pointed this out quite recently on one of the Titanium mailing lists. He also pointed out that the iTools had helped to build a significant sense of community among Macintosh users and that, sadly, this sense of community is now being eroded for the sake of a few cents.
The attached image might spark off a few smiles...
I can't believe that people actually support Apple in decisions like this.
First, iTools and the Auto dealer's site, were offerred with the understanding, either explicitly stated or implied by marketing, that the services were free. Permenently.
By reneging on their word, Apple does something that damages their shareholders far more than a small lack of cashflow: it breed discontent among the loyal Mac buyers. Apple has a huge brand loyalty. The people who currently own Macs are likely to buy another Mac in the future. How is it in their best interest to piss these people off--which they most certainly did--just to make a few more bucks??
They could just as easily offer a service along side their free service. This would get them their cash (which would satisfy their shareholders) and keep their customer loyalty (which would satisfy their shareholders AND their customers).
Second, I agree that businesses should never use this kind of e-mail address. However, switching an e-mail address or website is not damaging to ony business users. If I choose not to upgrade my iTools account (I haven't decided yet), I have to alert all of my friends, businesses I deal with, subscriptions to newsletters and such, etc. I am certain that I wouldn't get them all. Which means I would lose some e-mail or a friend wouldn't be able to get in touch with me.
Also, lets say I sign up for .Mac for the first year. Since, they don't bill me monthly and really don't *bill* me at all (I have to elect to switch), what if I forget to pay my next years subscription? Apple made it clear that they delete files. Would they cancel my e-mail address and delete whatever is in my mailboxes???
Anymore, I can't say that I trust Apple to give me the service that I've come to rely on.
How can this possibly be good business????
(And by the way, I'll probably upgrade. But I really want to see this situation rectified. I have a lot of friends who use these addresses who can't afford a one time payment of $100. Apple should look out for the people who have been so loyal for so long. They are going to help make this company healthy and viable in the years to come.)
Come on people. Those of you who say, I can't trust Apple any more, damn, people wake up. You never could! They are a corporation that sells a product that you happen to like. In the grand scheme of things they don't care about you as an individual, but they do care about us. iTools had to be expensive for them to maintain, and they decided to charge a cheap price for it. Plus they increased the amount of features, and will continue to do so. Don't like it, then go get a .msn, or google, or yahoo address. Hey there is always hotmail.
Seriously, for the average person it is still the best way to host a site, use their mail, backup etc. X.2 makes iDisk fly, absolutely fly. In addition to that, if they can move the cost of iTools off the machines, then it will lower the costs of new macs and make them more attractive to buyers.
Hey Taft, a verbal statement is not a binding contract... Unless you receive something in writing stating that X service is free, forever, there is no guarantee that it will be.
If you tell Joe Blow that you are going to do something, but you don't, does he have a leg to stand on??? Nope, not even a stump. He can biatch and moan and cry all he wants, it won't do him any good.
As for people that have their .mac email as their only one (or main one), it's been posted before that you will be able to get a free email only account. You won't get the extra 10MB of inbox space that you get when you pay, but you still have the option. Really, how difficult will it be to tell the people you get email from on a regular basis that your account has changed???
I seriously doubt that Apple will not remind you when it is approaching the renew date. So if you forget to renew, it's your own damned fault for not checking your email.
You need to take responsibility for yourself, and doing what needs to be done, for yourself. Don't expect someone else to be there to do it all for you.
I really have to get off this topic, but...
About the whole perpituity issue, I haven't really seen any evidence that Apple promised email for life. Thinking about it, I mean really thinking about it, I seem to remember that it was presented as being "permanent" in context to the times, where people were swtiching jobs, and email accounts like wildfire. That said, and until I see the proof to the contrary, I doubt Apple actually made the offer for life. It just doesn't make any sense.
Web services can be very expensive, if the service took off, and there was high traffic, it could have ended up costing a great deal of $$$. Leaving themselves open to liability like that seems unlikely.
Now, assuming the offer was made, I wouldn't have any issue if we are talking about small amount of cashflow, but we are talking about negative cashflow, and those are two entirely different things. My guess is that they're they are not trying to open up new revenue streams, but trying to plug up the holes in their internet strategy (akamai, and earthlink are also costing them $$.) That is what's important to stock holders, and - more importantly - the financial ananlysts who basically tell them what to think. The marketing value of "iTool" is basically over anyway.
As far as pissing off the Apple loyalists... well, this is pretty minor, all things considered. I've used macs for 18 years, I've done work for Apple, hell, I've even owned a Lisa, and in that time, Apple has pissed me off plenty. I like their products, so I've stuck around.I expect that there are plenty of others who will do the same, regardless. Are you going to turn your back on thousands of dollars of equpiment, and software licenses just because they took your email away? Are you going to be a Windows guy now? People will get over it. They may be nostalgic for the days when itools was free, and being for a part of the the furvor over the transition, but I expect it will just be another badge of honor among the long term users.
Finally, a suggestion. I've heard in the forums that you can continue your account as email only, but since I haven't seen it, lets assume it doesn't exist. If the .mac email is the thing for you are and your friends (I am sure that there will be notification to renew BTW,) why don't you all go in on an account. You know, spread the cost around? Sign up for the service, divide the start up cost, and pay the $10 dollars per additional address. That's reasonable, right? I don't know if it is legal, but I am sure if there was some kind of half-assed cooperative agreement, and there was no profit involved, I can't imagine it would be much of an issue.
The other suggestion is just pay for it. 100 bucks ain't much, 50 bucks for existing users is even less. If you can't stomach paying for a service you used to get free, consider it a gratuity for Apple having provided the service at no cost for as long as they did. I mean, I shell out at least that much in tips when I go out, and that's for a couple of hours. Of course, I am usually hammered when I make that decision, but what do you want?
I seem to remember that you can have up to 10 email addresses (or something like that) on your new .mac account (for no additional $$). After that ten, you pay $10 per additional address.
Re: Hey sneed...
I think we can all agree we love the Mac OS. Why else would we be here? And we hate the way M$ does business.
But a lot of us loyalists, who once touted the superiority of the hardware, software, and the company in general, seem to be waivering. Apple isn't the only one running a business in an "economic slowdown". Most of us are at least budgeting, and need the most bang for our bucks.
Sorry to tell you, but Wintels are the competition. If Apple wants to win consumers, and keep us non-zealot supporters, they need to wake up. If Motorola is lagging, find other ways to make things look better. Faster FSB, memory, IDE, overall system improvements. The cases are neat and all, but what about what's inside? The software is Fantastic, give us the hardware to prove it. We all dislike Windows.
And M$. So why conduct business like they do? I support them buying up other companies to innovate (Apple, not M$), and giving us new software solutions, but at what costs. Should we just accept it, because it's the lesser of 2 evils? Should we just say, "well that's the fastest Mac there is, so I'll buy it". Or "it looks so stylish, who cares if it's still using last years technology". Why become complacent with the obsolesencs?
Should we have to over pay for things that others offer for free, or at least cheaper? People are mad because they feel extorted, and dammit, they have every right to be pissed. They paid extra because they thought they were getting more. Now they're getting the old "bait and switch". The extras of .Mac are worth $100/year, if they work. But what about the "free for life" e-mail. Or paying $1,000 for a new OS X.2 Server Liscense 2 months after buying a $4,000+ xServe? Or even FULL PRICE for an upgrade. They want us to buy hardware before an Expo, then punish us if we do.
See if anybody buys a new Mac after they announce 10.3, but before they deliver it. Next it will be XP type registration practices. Isn't this why we're trying to move away M$. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't get new customers by p*ssing people off, and you lose those that used to support you. How many of us used to rave to our friends, family, and co-workers about Apples? How many of us now think twice before recommending them? They want to switch people, give them a better reason to want to switch.
They want to move into the Pro realm, give us Pro hardware. Who cares if you have a 1.2 GHz CPU, if it's surrounded by ATA/133 (which really is better than ATA/66), 120 GB+ Hard Drives, PC2700 DDR, 166 FSB (x2), 2 CD Drives, USB 2, built-in Bluetooth, etc. It matters now. You can do it. How many of us use GB Ethernet, or used USB or FW when they first came out? You can't use modern day specs!?!
You want to charge us more, give us more. All you zealots can flame away. "Apple good, Wintel bad, must hide head in sand". You should see what the other side is saying, I'm a zealot to them. But I'm just trying to be a realist here. I want a new Mac, but nothing on the current roster suits my needs. I'm not paying $2,000 for style. I can't afford to. Not many can (and if you can, lucky you). Mr. Jobs, give me something fairly decent and I'll take a (slight) performance hit for the extra stability and ease of use.
It's my $$$, I'll take it where I think it would serve me best. And telling people to just go buy a PC doesn't help. Actually it just proves my point. Because that's exactly what people do. This isn't a private club, it's a business claiming to want new customers, and in doing so doesn't seem to be catering to it's current base. If anything, it's p*ssing off it's most important clientel by making a lot of really bad choices. We're not happy, and we, the customer, are what matter.
Voice your opinions people. And b*tch all you want, until someone listens. Because no, it's not "good enough".
We're mad as Hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore.
I agree that iTools probably costs money--a pretty penny, if you will--to maintain. However, there is more than one way to stop losing that money. I personally feel that Apple chose the "wrong" way to do it.
As you said, there are plenty of other "free" e-mail services out there. Most of them find ways to either make money or to recoup the losses from hosting. An *optional* pay service is the way that many of them do it.
My opinion is that Apple should consider other options for offering these services, they should consider that a lot of people rely on iTools that can't afford an upgrade (or don't want the extra features), and they should change their policy to allow for minimal free e-mail.
They can then still recoup their hosting costs, and not piss anyone off in the process.
I was not suggesting that there was a legally binding contract or that anyone should try to pursue legal action against Apple. My point was that there were implied and explicit statements that led people to believe their e-mail was permanent, and these people will be (and are) pissed.
There is no free e-mail at this time. You must know a person with a .Mac account to get the "free" e-mail.
And I think that switching my primary e-mail address *is* a big deal. I have friends who I don't talk to all of the time, who would probably be lost in the shuffle. Not to mention services, mailing lists, news lists, etc. that I've signed up for.
As a contingancy plan, I personally have started to compile a list of people I need to inform. I didn't realize until I tried how many people my little change of address would effect. I'm certain that I'm currently missing people and companies on my list.
I do agree with you here, but I was trying to illustrate how much of a pain this whole process can be for a person who simply wants e-mail.
My point is that it went from supremely easy (ie. the Mac way) to quite difficult almost overnight.
Re: I really have to get off this topic, but...
I responded to this earlier. My basic point is that there are many ways to "plug" a hole through which assets are flowing out. Charging *everyone* for a better service is only one of many ways. I don't consider it the best and many other services are displaying that there are other ways.
I agree that it *probably* won't effect Apple's bottom dollar very much, if at all. But then again, pissing off your loyal customer base can only hurt you, not help you.
I personally have no plans to jump ship over something so trivial (to me anyway). But not everyone is like me or you. There are some hard headed reactionary people out there. And there are others who just don't like the way Apple handled this.
Add a few of the "Apple pissed me off a little" instances together and some people might find reason to jump. My point is that there is no real reason Apple has to upset their loyal customers; so why do it? Find another way to plug your cash liabilty hole.
You make a good point about the pooling thing though. Thats a good backup plan for those who don't want a full subscription (given that Apple doesn't change its current course of action, that is).
Dude, I had the same reaction that you are having at first, I think we all did. And you know what, I agree with you that they should do the e-mail for free. At the same time though I think about the funds that this will generate for future R&D and I get excited.
Anyway, for everything that it has, it is not a bad deal, but you are right, there are plenty o people that are pissed off about this.
Re: Re: Bait and switch
Sorry for the delay. Yes, you can deduct business expenses such as paying annual fees for computer services you use in your business.
Everyone is so mad about not having their free email addresses, and then they complain about the cost of .Mac. Those are two unrelated issues. Apple has said they will no longer be a free email host like the free versions of hotmail or yahoo mail. They will not eat the cost of providing that free service, and they refuse to bury their users in ads.
.Mac happens to have .mac email addresses, but it is so much more. It's $100 of services. If you don't want those services don't pay for them. If you do, they are worth it.
It's that simple.
As for changing addresses, sorry, but if it is such a pain in the butt, you obviously use it, and it would then be worth the money for a .Mac account (with which you get all the .Mac services).
Setting aside your "pay option" solution (might work, might not,) and nevermind whether or not Apple is justified in its policy, The the whole idea of providing service for those that can't afford it is really irritating. If one can't afford, don't use it.
Say that Apple does change their policy, and the money to pay for all of these welfare accounts comes out of customer support, or even worse, R&D. Are you telling me that everyone else who can afford, or doesn't even use itools, has to suffer for those who can't afford their email accounts? Is that an equitable solution?
Maybe they should close a few of their retail outlets. Is that fair to the people who work there?
Maybe they should take that money away from marketing? Is that fair to them, their vendors?
Maybe they should just lay off a few people (choose a department.)
The worst part, the worst part, is that we are talking about $100 dollars a year, 8 dollars a month, 28 cents a day, from people who had enough money to buy a mac in the first place, pay for internet access, and apparently run businesses.Computers are a luxury, and for most people who truly can't afford the upgrade, a computer is a dream to them. What would you tell them?
give credit where credit is due.
Apple's has done an excellent job on :
Funny how no one complained about the demise of iReview.
I support Apple's decision because I don't think the MASSES of Apple users should be affected by the few that want free stuff to the point of affection the companies ability to profit and grow. Apple has done more to improve the quality and features of OSX than they have done to detract from it IMO .
Each of the iApps is better than it's Windows counterpart. Sure some hotheads might defect but remember....PC users rave about the Hardware...NOT Microsoft.
I *almost* completely agree with what you are saying. Except...
The only reason I think this is a bad move on Apple's part is because I think its going to piss off a lot of people. I think its bad PR.
I personally will almost positively upgrade to .Mac. I can afford it, I like the features it offers, and I'm willing to spend the money. But, like I said earlier, not everyone agrees with me.
The reason I think this is a bad move is that its going to tick off a bunch of people, get bad press (it already has), and *possibly* cause some people to leave the platform. *If* there are other ways to recoup their hosting fees, I'd like to see Apple take these roads.
The reason I don't like this is because it is my opinion that it is bad for the company. I think they are *needlessly* shooting themselves in the foot. (Well maybe not the whole foot...just a toe )
Well, you know...
Once the drama is over, it'll be interesting to see how many people stick with the service, and what the long term effects will be. It's hard to say now, really. Apple claims to have a lot of new products coming, so maybe it'll all be swept up in the wash. Who knows? Frankly, I'd like to see that. Not because I think this'll kill the company othewise, but that if the new products are cool enough to soothe the angry masses, I'll be the first one in my local apple store, cash or credit card in hand.
solvs: Not to appear inconsistant, but I feel your pain on the server software. I paid for OSX Server version 1.2v3. A lot to pay for a few coasters. Ah well, what are you gonna do?