Bearing arms

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ZBoater, Sep 14, 2014.

  1. ZBoater macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #1
    It's not just about safety. Yes, of course, it's cultural. But this right was born out of concern for government getting out of control. Armed citizenry tend to make difficult subjects.

    And lawbreakers care not for gun restrictions, which gives them the advantage. When a government restricts it's citizens rights to bear arms, it subjugates them that much more, not to mention leaving them defenseless.

    Australia obviously has a much different past and origins, so I can understand the difference of opinion.
     
  2. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #2
    I totally agree with what you wrote!
    Get ready for certain other forum members who will not agree. ;)
     
  3. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #3
    I also agree. I believe that right to bear arms keeps us free. It not only allows us to defend ourselves from those that would do us harm but it keeps the government from running roughshod over the governed.
     
  4. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #4
    And here I was hoping for a thread on the joys of sleevelessness.
     
  5. Technarchy macrumors 604

    Technarchy

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    #5
    When only police have guns you live in a police state.
     
  6. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

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    #6
    That's BARE arms. These are more like...

    [​IMG]
     
  7. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #7
    You shall. Starbucks has announced that they are considering letting their employees bear the tattoos on their arms.

    Shall not be infringed, indeed.

    BL.
     
  8. ZBoater thread starter macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #8
    That's ok. Hopefully we can keep it civil.
     
  9. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #9
    Yeah, but do we have a well-regulated Melitta?
     
  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #10
    So let's get rid of our standing army and return to state militias.
     
  11. IllIllIll macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    Why? Our standing army is already expressly not to be used on our home soil or against our own citizens.
     
  12. noodlemanc macrumors regular

    noodlemanc

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    #12
    Agreed. Gun control doesn't get rid of guns, it merely centralises the into the hands of a minority -- which means that that minority can pretty much do whatever it wants.
     
  13. ZBoater thread starter macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #13
    Ummm, this has nothing to do with our Army. The government is expressly forbidden from deploying the Army in the homeland (another protection) and in a recent interview most Army officers said they would refuse such unlawful orders.

    It is all about a balance. One thing all by itself won't do the trick. Notice how despite not being able to deploy armed forces, the US government has still found a way to expand it's power and control over its people.

    Disarming the populace would but us that much closer to complete and unchecked control by the government. And history is full of examples of how that turns out.

    The freedoms and rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were designed to work together. Freedom of speech, right to bear arms, freedom from unreasonable search and seizures, etc. Remove one, and the others will unravel.
     
  14. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #14
    Who said anyone is wanting to remove any of these rights?

    BL.
     
  15. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #15
    Nothing? Really?

    From the James Madison Research Library ...

     
  16. ZBoater thread starter macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #16
    We are discussing specifically the right to bear arms, in the context of many posters from other countries where that right does not exist for them.

    That right seems odd to them, and even some who live here are wondering why anyone would want to carry a weapon. Wouldn't it be better if no one had any weapons? (Except the government of course).

    For further context, this all started on a thread regarding security at Apple stores during iPhone launch day.

    So I opted to create this thread to have a discussion with an Aussie poster about why our right to bear arms in the US is preferable to the situation in Australia.

    ----------

    Yes nothing. Your lengthy copy and paste has nothing to do with getting rid of the Army. Try to stay on topic, please.
     
  17. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #17
    How's that working out so far?
     
  18. kalsta macrumors 68000

    kalsta

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    #18
    For anyone wondering where this thread sprang from: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=19687482#post19687482. I'm the 'Aussie poster' ZBoater refers to.

    Okay, I'll bite… (but with limited time to debate this)

    Firearm-related death rates (per 100,000 population per year)
    USA: 10.3
    Australia: 1.06
    (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)

    Murder rates (per 100,000 population per year)
    USA: 4.7
    Australia: 1.1
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

    Obviously there are many factors here aside from gun control. We'd have to look at other cultural differences, poverty, crime-rates, drug use, etc. But there is other evidence that gun ownership does not create a safer community:

    Research shows link between number of guns and number of homicides:
    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

    Research shows link between possessing a gun and likelihood of being shot:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/

    All you guys trying to tell me that you feel safer because you have the right to carry a gun—that's all it is, a feeling. Statistically you're more than 4 times likely to be murdered in your country, and close to 10 times more likely to be killed by a gun.

    In Australia we have thugs too. They can (and do) still cause a lot of harm. But the potential for harm appears to be much less. Mass shootings are a common occurrence in the US. They are extremely rare here in Australia, where we have much stricter gun control.

    ZBoater, I sense much fear in you, (will resist more Yoda quotes here) when you say things like 'wishful thinking that evil won't find you' (from previous thread). Tell me, what is it that convinces millions of Americans to buy a gun if not fear? I think if you surveyed most Australians, you would find much less fear of being the victim of a violent attack. So, you endorse freedom to own a gun. I endorse freedom from fear. When everyone owns a gun, all you've done is up the ante (the potential for harm). Question: Would you support the right for everyone to have their cars fitted with rocket launchers, capable of blowing up the vehicle in front? If not, why not?
     
  19. mtneer macrumors 68020

    mtneer

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    #19
    Completely agree within context of the American experience.

    But it's not some universal truth applicable to all nations. There are general platitudes rinsed repeatedly such as an armed society being polite etc. Afghanistan/ Waziristan is heavily armed, awash with guns. But the population is neither free nor polite.
     
  20. ZBoater thread starter macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #20
    Not very well I'm sad to say. But it could be a lot worse.
     
  21. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #21
    What do you plan to do about it?
     
  22. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Most police departments in the United States now have a procedure that requires officers have their hands on their (holstered) sidearm when approaching any vehicle they have pulled over for a traffic infraction.

    Yes. Thats what your precious Second Amendment has bought for you freedom loving morons. The reality that driving slightly over the posted speed limit puts you within a heartbeat of being shot to death by an armed Government employee.

    For what its worth, driving slightly over the posted limit in Britain (where guns in private hands are all but banned) means - at worst - you'll get an expensive postcard in the mail.

    You tell me who came out ahead?
     
  23. zioxide macrumors 603

    zioxide

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    #23
    Obviously America did because we still have the right to shoot at cans and other **** in our backyards!

    In all seriousness though, it's pretty clear Britain has. Less armed gestapo police and more caring about the citizens of the country.
     
  24. ZBoater thread starter macrumors G3

    ZBoater

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    #24
    Gun ownership is not just about crime. The right to bear arms in the US was born out of the resistance to tyranny, and our unwillingness to become subjugated to a tyrannical government.

    That right is not absolute as interpreted by our judicial system. So no, we can't own rocket launchers or fully automatic weapons. But give the government an inch, and they'll take a mile (or 2.2 kilometers). There is a natural tendency for government to grow, expand it's influence, and eventually subjugate it's people. It doesn't happen overnight, but history is full of examples.

    Freedom from fear is great. But I endorse personal responsibility, and I don't expect the government to take care of me and protect me so I can live free of fear. That "fear" you think you sense is determination to be responsible for my own safety. I'm not relinquishing that to my government. If you think you can do it to yours, I'm happy. But over here we come at it from a different angle.

    Firearms ownership is a key component of a free society. It's not the only component as the poster referencing Afghanistan put it. It's one of several which I enumerated earlier. The American experiment has proven how effective a republican form of government can be. Not without it's flaws, of course, but with freedom of expression and religion, separation of church and state, and yes, the right to bear arms, all being equally important.

    A look back at history on how most modern despots and tyrants came to power all have a common element - disarming the populace. Trust me when I say you don't want the US going down that hole. The entire planet will suffer the consequences.
     
  25. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #25
    No, knave. He meant to arm bears.:D
     

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