Being against torture is un-American

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by iJesus, May 7, 2008.

  1. iJesus macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #1
    Well, I am President of Amnesty International at our High School. Recently, we started putting posters around the school with quotes from Amnesty International. Those quotes were things such as "The America I believe in wouldn't hold people without freedom, without hope, without justice" (something like that, I forget). The quotes were written on orange paper with black marker and they had they Amnesty Logo in the corner. We got permission from the Administration to hang them up in the halls.

    Now, we had one very conservative teacher start telling his students that the Club was Unpatriotic and that we weren't allowed to hang up the posters which were also un-American. He also said that our teacher advisors were brainwashing the kids to be liberal and un-American.

    Now, it's been almost 3 weeks that we had the posters up and when I come back to school, they are gone. Do you think I should contact the administration and see what happened to them and if they don't know, should I ask for permission to review the tapes from the cameras?

    What do you think about all this?
     
  2. mduser63 macrumors 68040

    mduser63

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    #2
    I would certainly do something about it. If you got permission to put them up, the teacher in question has no right to take them down (assuming that's who did it, and that's definitely a big assumption). What's un-American is suppressing opinions that you don't agree with. Criticizing one's government is not only American, it's the whole basis for the initial formation of the US.
     
  3. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #3
    I would first talk to some of the administrative staff to see if perhaps there's a time limit for posters. It may just be a case of keeping the school clean for other, newer posters.
     
  4. BigPrince macrumors 68020

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    #4
    When my class was talking about illegal immigration and what to do about it I suggested barbed wire, landmines, and machine gun nests...My teacher called me un-American and that would be murder.

    I argued that its not murder if you have signs and barbed wire preventing people from entering...and that it is un-American to allow what we are currently allowing to happen.
     
  5. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #5
    I think that the worst thing about Illegal immigration is that they're the new slave laborers of this age and the US keeps profiting from them.

    Anywho, let's stick to the subject.

    I'm going to talk to the Administration tomorrow.If they were the ones that took them down I'm going to ask them why they did so and why they proceeded to take them down without contacting us. If they say that they don't know about it and they refuse to show the tapes to see who did it, I'm calling up the ACLU. Some may see this as unnecessary and over the top but it's a step I'm willing to take to ensure that this subject isn't forgotten.

    Wish me luck.
     
  6. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    totally cool
  7. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #7
    They are hardly slave laborers. We did not go and bring them here against their will, chain them and cram them into ships or trailers. We can't sell them or their children, whip them, etc. So spare us the hyperbole.:rolleyes:
     
  8. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #8
    Oh come on. What would you do if an American Company in the 1980's hired you to work in Mexico because you were cheaper labor and then in the 1990's you were denied a job because the American Companies moved to Asia where the labor was cheaper? Wouldn't you try to make a better life for yourself and move up North? How many times have you heard someone on TV or in real life say something like "I'll have you deported" in order to keep an illegal alien in line? Illegal immigrants have become a peculiar institution which moves our social security, taxes, and low prices moving right along.

    Seriously, spare us the unnecessary debate over immigration when this thread is about torture. I'm sure you can find another thread on here where you can voice your opinion.

    Oh, and I didn't know that slaves were brought to the US in trailers.
     
  9. ErikCLDR macrumors 68000

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    #9
    Yes, Slaves pump out children which taxpayers have to pay for, take away opportunities for lower class americans, schools lose money, hospitals lose money, and they increase crime. Their children can also take away scholarship opportunities and spots in colleges. But they do do the work most people otherwise wouldn't want to do.

    Back on topic I think Amnesty International has a good cause but in can be a biased organization that does not take into account the pros and cons of situations. To an extent they are "un-patriotic" in the respect that they constantly seem to be criticizing the US Government, in an excessive manor.The definition of patriotism is standing behind the nation. Not to say you can't be a patriot and still have your complaints about your government, but...

    Anyways I am not trying to start a debate. My school seems to remove posters once they've been up for a while. Imagine if ever poster was left up until it fell off the wall. There would probably be a lot of posters on the wall. I wouldn't take it as an offense that they took them down, probably just cleaning. They tend to clean up the school a lot if there is a vacation week or important meetings (accreditation, parent-teacher meetings, etc).
     
  10. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #10
    I am going to chime in with lee and mduser63 (and what you said in your second post). The first thing to do is get the facts. Then, if you are being censored, have some fun with it. Enhance the learning experience. Always keep level-headed and refrain from letting anger and threats weaken your position. It is easy to dismiss someone who is displaying bad manners and lack of self-control.

    Seeking aid from the ACLU is a good tactic. But, I also think you will be able to find allies, sometimes in unlikely places. You may be able to enlist help from other students, or student groups. You will no doubt be able to find parents, who share similar views (latest polls show nearly 80% of Americans are against the war). Parents vote on school levies and for school board members. They have voices that get listened to by school districts.
     
  11. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #11
    Take a US History Class and you'll find direct parallels with those statements and statements made during slavery through civil rights days.

    Thanks for your input. I'll definitely take my time with this and make sure I don't push things too far too early. I doubt the posters were taken down for cleaning though since we've had things up for the whole year. If "cleaning" does seem to be the excuse, we can always make new ones.

    I'm going to talk to the Administrators tomorrow during lunch. I want to clear everything up.

    I like your avatar btw.
     
  12. riscy macrumors 6502a

    riscy

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    #12
    Some good advice here - this brought to mind the following lyrics from a song :

    "Conclusion
    There is a certain social process which is known and very visible but perhaps not acknowledged as much as it should be. It is that one where a new idea or an old one in new form, is accepted by a minority, while the majority is shouting treason, rubbish, cook, communist, anarchist, capitalist, or whatever is a term of abuse valued by that society--infringer--and they develop this idea, at first probably in secrecy or semi-secrecy, and then more and more visible, with more and more support until, guess what? What? This seditious and impossible wrong-headed idea, becomes what is known as... what? ...received opinion and is loved and valued... what? ...by the majority. What? What?"

    The word unpatriotic is being used in this case, and you are either one of them or one of us is the implication. It is trying to use the pressure of the majority view to influence your group and cow you down.

    I was just watching Manufacturing Consent - a documentary from 1992 about Noam Chomsky and he speaks to a student activist and says that they will be attacked byy outsiders if they step out of the normally accepted bounds (which is what you are doing)
     
  13. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #13
    I love applying songs to situations. +67 style points for you.

    Thanks for the constructive advice friend.
     
  14. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #14
    I'm with the rest -- check to see if the posters were taken down according to some reasonable policy, like time limits. If they were taken down by someone simply because they disagree with you, then by all means ask the school administration to investigate.

    BTW, I hope that conservative teacher isn't teaching something like history or political science, because he'd be highly unqualified.

    Take a deep breath and listen to what you're saying.

    You're talking about a punishment way disproportionate to the offense, and you don't think it's murder? You're propounding a retribution system that sounds like what they do in radical Islamic countries, and you don't think you're un-American?
     
  15. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #15
    He teaches US Government. His class is right next to my AP US History teacher's class (My teacher told me that he'd let me into that guys class if I ever wanted to put posters in his classroom, thought it would be funny)
     
  16. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #16
    Well since you brought up the topic of slavery, I guess I'll continue it here. Illegal immigrants are not slaves in any sense of the word. They are free to come and go as they please. No one forces them to come or stay here. Agreed that there are better economic opportunities here for them and some are mistreated, but they hardly have to go through what the African-Americans had to go through in the first 100 years of this country.

    So seriously, spare us the inflammatory rhetoric about illegal immigrants. Its great that you feel passionately about them, but comparing them to slaves is just absurd.
     
  17. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #17
    Think what you wish.
    Btw, it's more like first 200 years of this country.
     
  18. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #18
    Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The first role of the patriot is to protect the Country from its Government". To call AI "un-patriotic", for criticizing US policies (and/or practices), is what is really un-patriotic.

    Our Country has done some great things for the world, and domestically. But, we have also done (and continue to do) many deplorable things as well. We have to acknowledge this dispassionately and honestly. Otherwise, we are just fooling ourselves, and preventing America from becoming the Country we idealize.
     
  19. jb60606 macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    Please tell me he's not a history teacher.
     
  20. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #20
    Nope, US Government teacher.
     
  21. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #21
    That's even worse :eek:


    My American Government teacher was very liberal and told us he was a Democrat, he managed to put all that aside for the hour and remain neutral. In any class discussion, he would always play devil's advocate and change sides to keep a good discussion going. Hopefully this guy is the same, but from what I hear, I seriously doubt that
     
  22. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #22

    Same with my AP US History Teacher.

    Oh oh oh! I'm an Obama fan (Actually, I like Dennis Kucinich more but he kinda dropped out).

    =)
     
  23. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #23
    That teacher's politics aside, he does have a potentially valid point.

    Schools are a public space, and more importantly, they are a government funded space. Certain types of speech are restricted, especially if they have any partizan slant to them.

    That said, I don't think your posters were being overly partizan (if at all) so they should be fine. As long as you're advocating against a particular policy and not a person, you should be ok.

    Nonetheless, I'd research this a bit more. The ACLU might be able to help you; check out their website.

    Be an iMartyr?
    Let's not go there please.

    Second class citizenship is hardly the same as slavery.

    And, if you are a good student of history, you will realize that equality has still yet to be achieved for many.

    The straight white male is still very much the "first" citizen in this nation.
     
  24. iJesus thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iJesus

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    #24
    Well, we made sure to get an administrator's approval before putting them up. We also decided to target "torture" and not "Guantanamo" because of the politics. And to seem unbiased, we put up a quote from each of the three presidential candidates saying torture was wrong. We even gave John McCain the best spot.
     
  25. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #25
    :eek: Sounds like some parents ought to have a chat with school administration about this guy. He doesn't sound like he knows his subject.
     

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