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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mudslag, Feb 4, 2014.
I have to wonder why people even try to debate creationists.
It is a quick route to a headache.
For less pain, you can read the Cliff's Notes version on Time.
I watched it last night (after a rerun or two of Big Bang Theory) but dozed off after Bill Nye's 30 minutes. Ham seems to think that the existence of scientists who subscribe to young-earth-creationism is a big deal (one of them invented NMR imaging!) and that unbelievers have, dammit, hijacked science and tried to wrest it away from right-thinking people. Did he mention that Darwin was a good Catholic?
From what I glean, Bill Nye finds mystery acceptable, perhaps even desirable, Ken Ham thinks we need to have answers to these things, even if they are fabricated by ancient dopers.
I love Bill Nye because of his science advocacy with the public and have awesome memories of watching his show when I was a kid. But I think I'm going to pass watching this debate.
The reason why I'll pass is the fact that I've seen and been in so many of these debates that it always comes down to the creationist completely dismissing the evidence and making an argument from ignorance. If they want to keep denying reality and believing that a mythical man in the sky created earth in six days despite all the evidence to the contrary, it's up to them. I can't help anyone else's willful ignorance.
Nevertheless, I am glad that there are people fighting the good fight.
Thank you. there's no way I'm listening to that creationist hack.
The whole "the earth is only 6000 years old" crap makes me gag.
You could say the same for a lot of debates where people are firmly entrenched in their views (abortion being the one that comes immediately to mind).
Creationism is a scientific abortion.
Except when you're debating abortion, it is pure opinion.
When you put science against religion? Two separate things.
When you say creationism do you mean the concept of God creating everything? Or are you talking about the people who think the world is 4,000 or so years old as how we currently measure years?
Well, there is nothing scientific about creationism in any sense of the word.
I can agree with that. But there are a lot of things that happen in this world without any rational or provable explanation. Surely there's some room in the discussion of the makings of the universe for this as well.
There is nothing in this world without a rational explanation. There are things without provable explanations. The supernatural is a non-answer to these.
If something isn't provable then what can be used to explain it other than opinion?
Isn't creationism a hypothesis that can't be proven?
Sure. But that's the point. There are many aspects of our lives and the road we took to where we are now that can't be proven. I'm not one of those that thinks that evolution is false, only that evolution and the Big Bang theory only gets you so far in explaining how we went from nothing to where we are today.
We know the earth is older than 6,000 years and that God didn't create everything in 6 days. We might never be able to explain the big bang or where we came from. But we have a pretty good idea.
I pretty much buy into what Carl Sagan said:
"You can not convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it is based on a deep-seated need to believe." And, I'm ok with those who have a need to believe, so long as they don't try to push those beliefs on society.
And, I've found you can't convince some atheists of anything either.
Not only that, but we know [from archeological and historical evidence] how monotheism developed in the middle east. We know "Yahweh" was once part of a pantheon of gods, originally not even being the most important of them.
We can talk about units of measure all day, but one person's belief about where we came from is no more or less valid than the other when we're talking about areas of the story that can't be proved.
Yes, that's correct.
Carbon dating can prove a lot more than God created everything.
Point of clarification I am Catholic. But I also follow the science, and if it is proven that God created everything great, just right now we can't prove that.
There is plenty of proof in intelligent design (creationism) if you look into it. I don't have a problem with those who believe in evolution yet are still Christian, but to say intelligent design isn't science in my opinion is a little bit misguided. If there wasn't proof recognized for either side this wouldn't be much of a debate! I'm not too knowledgable on the topic, but to my understanding people seem to give Intelligent Design a lot less credit than is due. Just my opinion, and not aiming to insult anyone's beliefs.
I also think that Evolution takes some amount of faith... otherwise it wouldn't be labeled as a theory.
It really depends on who you talk to... For both Evolutionists and Creationists. I'd say both sides can be pretty stubborn
But the scientific side can change from time to time, because it's allowed to do that.
I'll start off with a quote:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
There's room for discussion however, just because we cannot fully explain something now doesn't mean that something supernatural is behind it. There is still a lot about the universe that we still don't have the answers to and we are using science and the scientific method to answer these things. Remember, there was a time in human history when people thought that the sun revolved around earth but through science, we know that it is not the case. So to jump to the conclusion and say that something supernatural is behind something we cannot explain is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.
And it has changed quite a bit, which is fine. There are plenty of times where science has changed, gone back, or emended it's claims. But then again science its self doesn't change, just the claims of those who research. Creationism won't change because its basis is on something already written (or at least the Christian creationism is). Intelligent design isn't necessarily even Christian, it simply states that a "higher" or "more intelligent power" created the world and all matter. In my opinion it's really not all that different than saying that The Big Bang, where nothing became something, happened. Many of the origins of existence theories state that matter at one point had to have been created by some force at the beginning of time... we just don't know what force. It boils down to what you personally believe
I pretty much agree with you here. One should never jump to conclusions, as there is no basis for discussion. However, I also think that one should at least keep an open mind towards the other side, and I suppose that goes for both ways.