Brazilian Church Upholds God's Law

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7926694.stm
    What is wrong with these people? Holocaust deniers are OK, but sparing a nine year old rape victim is unacceptable, apparently.
     
  2. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #2
    What about the child's stepfather? Is the church going to excommunicate him too, or is his sin forgivable in their eyes?
     
  3. Queso macrumors G4

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    #3
    Yet another example of just how messed up The Vatican's view of the world is. That poor girl needs the love of everyone around her, and all the so-called Holy men can do is damn them all to hell.

    Lovely.
     
  4. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #4
    Wow... that's just effed up on SO many levels.

    And the fact that the Church will excommunicate those involved with the abortion, but don't appear interested in doing the same for the perpetrator is just disgusting; although admittedly setting a precedent that those who abuse children are out of the church could leave them with considerably fewer priests...
     
  5. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #5
    Of course it's forgivable.

    He was trying to bring 2 more Catholics into the World, was he not???

    :rolleyes:

    BTW, can a lowly Bishop actually get away with this?? I don't think so. And I don't see where there is even a Cardinal involved, much less the Holy Father. :(
     
  6. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    #6
    Although I don't want to debate this (I'm unclear about the theological implications of abortion in cases such as this), but I thought I'd provide some more information about abortion and excommunication.

    First, though, I have to call BS on Skunk's comment about Holocaust deniers. If you've read anything about the Richard Williamson case, the pope has been nothing but adamant that he recant his denial. Williamson did one of those "apologies" where he apologized for causing the pope all that trouble, and the pope said it wasn't enough.

    But onto the subject of abortion, you have to understand that the bishop and the pope did not go out of their way to explicitly excommunicate these people. Abortion is one of the few things that invokes automatic excommunication. In cases of non-automatic excommunication, it can only be declared by the pope. So I wanted to clarify that the pope did not go out of his way to excommunicate these people. The only reason why a bishop got involved at all was to clarify that the child was not excommunicated since the mother is usually subject to automatic excommunication.

    Second of all, rape is most definitely a mortal sin, so the man should not be allowed to receive communion (the biggest part of excommunication) and if he were to die without making a sincere confession, he would be in the same status as one who dies in a state of excommunication. The difference is that a specific appeal to the pope must be made to lift an excommunication before a proper confession can be made. I'd bet that if the excommunicated people here were to honestly appeal to the pope with true remorse, they would be absolved.

    Now as to why abortion invokes automatic excommunication, you have to understand a bit of Catholic theology. Someone who commits a sin can always repent and be absolved. At the moment of conception, Catholic theology holds that original sin has already entered the child. If an abortion occurs, the child obviously cannot be baptized and absolved of original sin (although now that I think of it, perhaps there should be some way to baptize within the womb...). So the reason why abortion is an automatic excommunication is that, although the theory of Limbo was officially condemned a few years ago, an aborted baby is put into a position where salvation is ambiguous at best. Since an abortion threatens the salvation of someone else in every case, it is subject to automatic excommunication. Rape, on the other hand, while a terrible sin, is not as terrible as threatening someone else's salvation. Of course, this difference is lunacy to a non-Christian, but to a Catholic where an eternity of of ambiguous existence out of the reach of heaven is the result, it makes logical sense.

    Now feel free to grind Catholic theology and the Catholic Church into the ground if you want. I, personally, have no interest in debating this, but others might and I wanted to lay down some ground work. I might pop in this thread to answer questions about what I wrote, but I will not take a side.
     
  7. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    I remain spectacularly unconvinced, and give you some telling words from Robert Fisk in The Independent:


    In this case especially, the whole incident, the church's reaction, the automatic sanction irrespective of circumstances, all conspire to make any justification both obscene and farcical. If the end result is so patently contrary to the demands of natural justice, humanity and common sense, then no amount of pleading the inalienable truth and infallibility of cold, paternalistic and frankly barbarous doctrinal rigidity will achieve anything but to emphasise the hopeless dogmatic miasma which the church wallows in.
     
  8. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    #8
    I admit that I did take a position regarding on this matter, so I feel compelled to respond. I think that the article you posted from the Independent is full of convenient holes and misrepresentations of fact, along with mere speculation and opinion that is biased against Ratzinger for no rational reason.

    First of all, to offhandedly reject taking Ratzinger at his word that he was drafted unwillingly is ridiculous. At the very worst it's a case of he-said/she-said. At best, Ratzinger has on his side the documented fact that he never attended a Hitler Youth meeting, refusing to do so since his father hated the Nazi party, and the fact that his cousin, an autistic, was killed (purged) by the Nazis. Not to mention that to judge a man's views towards Jews by less-than-damning actions 60 years ago hardly seems fair.

    Second of all, I've scoured the internet for anything remotely approaching something by the pope saying that a "gang" was to blame, and all I could find was this article. Hardly convincing evidence.

    Third of all, the bit about quoting the Byzantine Emperor is taken way out of context. To refer to it offhandedly here betrays the author's intent to discredit the man without serious debate or thoughtful analysis. (As an aside, I discussed this incident with a professor of Byzantine history, a professor of Byzantine art, a professor of the Crusdades and the about five people outside of that lecture hall that actually read the whole lecture and put that quotation in context, and all agreed that there was no malicious intent at all; the consensus was that he was used to being a professor, not a pope where everything you say can be manipulated into a damning sound-byte.)

    Fourth, the inclusion of "anti-gay, anti-divorce" does the most to betray the author's bias against the pope. Obviously the author is not judging objectively whether the pope is antisemitic, but rather is seeking to discredit the leader of a religion he disagrees with. It's fine to disagree with the religion, but it's journalistically suspect to write an article condemning the leader of the religion as an antisemite to discredit the religion.
     
  9. OllyW Moderator

    OllyW

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    #9
    The only answer I can give is they are evil.

    The poor girl and her family need all the help and support they can get. Instead they are threatened and persecuted. Someone tell them we are no longer living in medieval times, it's the 21st century. Can't they just apply some common sense for a change.

    Disgusting. :mad:
     
  10. joepunk macrumors 68030

    joepunk

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    #10
    Good God these church officials make me want to vomit :(
     
  11. kastenbrust macrumors 68030

    kastenbrust

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    #11
    lets be honest, half the Catholic bishops are kiddie fiddlers themselves so there isnt a lot the Catholic church can do really. Lets put it like this, the Catholic church with their history doesn't exactly have the moral high ground...

    But you can't blame the Catholic church, any organization that bans its members from reproducing which is what humans are designed to do, and God designed us to do or he wouldn't have given us reproducing organs is going to have a higher rate of perverts due to freudian style repressed sexual urges.
     
  12. chilipie macrumors 6502a

    chilipie

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    #12
    The Vatican has now backed the bishop who excommunicated them; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7930380.stm

     
  13. Queso macrumors G4

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    #13
  14. jsw Moderator emeritus

    jsw

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    #14
    The "life must always be protected" bit amuses me (well, in a dark way), since the poor little girl would likely have died before she was able to give birth anyway, so by killing two, they spared a third death.
     
  15. dinaluvsApple macrumors regular

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    #15
    if there is some good news in all this is that atleast she isnt going to be lashed 100 times for commiting adultery like a certain other religion.
     
  16. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #16
    I noticed that several people pasted over Macaddicttt explaining it. I also noticed the author of the article conveniently left out those details as well.

    I mean posting the entire truth instead of trying to spin it. That is unheard of.

    While I may not agree with the pratice this to me is yet another article that shows me how worthless the media has become and how they no longer care about the truth.
     
  17. WinterMute Moderator emeritus

    WinterMute

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    #17
    "Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian Church is unjustified."

    This from the church that brought you such chuckle-fests as the Auto-da-fe.

    Religion kills more people daily than anything short of old age or mosquitos.

    Breaking news: The Vatican has excommunicated mosquitos.

    (Clearly I jest......)


    Man-made absolutes when applied to so-called divine law will always fall foul of humanity.

    These people are better off without this church.
     
  18. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #18
    absolutely!

    At least this poor girl doesn't live a country where some of the religious types feel the need to stone her to death for getting raped
     
  19. joepunk macrumors 68030

    joepunk

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    #19
    From the CBC. Pretty much same story from posts above

    Jesus F**king Christ

    I really hope that moderate and liberal people of Brazil are standing up for the doctors and the little girl and her mother on this.

    Well that's nice of them
     
  20. EricNau Moderator emeritus

    EricNau

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    #20
    She was excommunicated? ...Sounds more like a reward than a punishment.
     
  21. barkmonster macrumors 68020

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    #21
    I think these morons and they're invisible man in the sky need to keep ideas like that in the past where they belong and realise society has a moral code that no faith can have a different side to in circumstances like this.

    The Cardinal in question should be ex-communicated from the church themselves given the circumstances.

    This is an outrage and comes from the same mentality of Cardinals having a vow of chastity unless they think one of their choir boys is pretty.

    It's wrong!

    And it's yet another reason to only believe in the reality you're presented with and have a sense of moral duty based on how you expect others to act toward you, not some supernatural guff that's got no social relevance to the real world any more, that's fuelled just about every major war and gives people like that a sense of immunity by almost making their sick behaviour acceptable. At least it's only religious immunity and the guy will get what deserves legally, we hope!

    It's a shame the Dan Brown version of the Illuminati aren't real so the UN can "accidentally" provide them with a small nuclear device and transport to Vatican City!
     
  22. EricNau Moderator emeritus

    EricNau

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    #22
    But it's their religion, their rules. So long as canon law remains canonical, and is not imposed outside of the church, there's no reason to intervene.

    Religion is a choice, after all; if one doesn't like the rules, one needn't belong to that religion.
     
  23. Counterfit macrumors G3

    Counterfit

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    #23
    You realize that the Vatican is in the middle of Rome, right?
     
  24. barkmonster macrumors 68020

    barkmonster

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    #24
    It's only "what if?" style venting about the situation and a throw away comment but wikipedia say the Vatican is 0.44Km squared so yeah, it would be overkill.

    "Angels and Demons" by Dan Brown is about a plot to steal Anti-Matter and use it to blow up the Vatican but seeing as Anti-Matter explosives don't exist, a small atomic bomb is the closest alternative I could think of that does.

    I can't believe how off topic this is going.

    I just don't think forgiving someone for raping a child while persecuting everyone who actually cared to do anything about it is remotely right, even if it's only within the circle of their religion.
     

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